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Re:Putting Victimhood Behind You by 6gvONxR4sf7o on Wednesday September 25, 2019 @12:17PM (#21072180)
It's a real shame how difficult politeness and sorta-kinda-deference can be to decouple. I'm super confrontation avoidant. It's a problem I work on, but I want to be kind and respectful and liked, so I'll go along with a lot. Being kind and respectful and liked and saying a solid no is really hard. Even sacrificing those to say a solid no is hard. Weird how difficult it is personally to reprogram. Props to the OP for growing.
Re:Putting Victimhood Behind You by vorpalhex on Wednesday September 25, 2019 @12:34PM (#21072395)
If people don't like you when you politely refuse them, they don't actually like you, they like for what they get from you.

A great test of friendship is to refuse someone for a simple thing, politely. A good friend will dismiss the matter and move on with no hurt feelings or issue.

Re:Putting Victimhood Behind You by 6gvONxR4sf7o on Wednesday September 25, 2019 @02:15PM (#21073530)
Agreed, and yet that knowledge doesn't make it that much easier.

For example, if it's a project at work where we're trying to agree on direction, consensus must be built. Saying "no I disagree with that decision" (or that interpretation of an analysis or whatever) is quite difficult. When performance review time comes around, I get the feedback that I should speak up more since people value my opinion. And when I do speak up, it's well received, and we always have polite constructive discussions and everyone's happier for it, even when it ends up with "agree to disagree."

It's kinda the ideal scenario and yet it still takes such a huge emotional toll.

Re:Putting Victimhood Behind You by vorpalhex on Wednesday September 25, 2019 @02:25PM (#21073638)
I've noticed amongst some of my friends with similar issues that they see disagreeing as being a kind of harm. That to make someone uncomfortable or upset is as bad as kicking them in the shin or yelling at them.

You can't feed a child nothing but candy. Candy is delicious and great, I love candy, but it's just sugar. To merely agree with someone all the same is to both undervalue their agency (what makes them human, their ability to engage critically and freely with new information) and over-value the norm. In other words, to agree with someone all the time is to give them nothing but sugar candy.

That's not license to yell or be a jerk. Please don't go around trodding on people and calling them sheeple. But do disagree with people because it both helps you and betters them. To engage with opinions we don't have, to consume information we don't like is the intellectual equivalent of eating your vegetables.

Re:Putting Victimhood Behind You by erikerikson on Wednesday September 25, 2019 @02:37PM (#21073785)
Saying no or directly contradicting is often not necessary. Often the reason you might be interested in saying no is a value or dynamic you feel is being under addressed or undervalued. You can compliment what's positive in another's statement and ask about that positions relationship with the value or dynamic you identify as needing to be addressed or valued.
Re:Putting Victimhood Behind You by 6gvONxR4sf7o on Wednesday September 25, 2019 @04:02PM (#21074696)
Oh man, it's made me a god damned jedi master of doing that. I'll jump through all the hoops and contortions to avoid a really direct contradiction. I think I'm actually pretty good at getting to consensus as a byproduct of stubborn "must be right" and avoidant "must be liked."
Re:Putting Victimhood Behind You by mmsimanga on Wednesday September 25, 2019 @02:49PM (#21073898)
Your post resonates with me. I would go further to say that avoiding conflict is a cultural norm in my case and it makes modern life difficult. Children are raised to listen to adults and we all supposed to listen to people older than us. The standard procedure to handle conflict is to call a big family meeting where the elders speak on your behalf. This is Africa and this is one of the reasons we have struggled to kick out corrupt governments. Avoidance of conflict is also taking it's toll within families when someone goes rogue.

I struggled for a long time and still struggle to be assertive. My first instinct is to say yes and I always feel bad when I say no. I would rather keep quiet than say no which is ambiguous. I am better now as I grow older. One of the reasons is because after some time unwillingly saying yes I would eventually explode and throw baby out with the water. I don't like that side of me so it is better to be firm and say no now than explode later. It is still a struggle but I get better every day.