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Re:Inkscape 1.0 Beta 1 by cies on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @02:44AM (#21002899)
Inkscape is my go-to example of why FLOSS is great:

* Learn how to use it once

  * Keep using it for a life time

  * Not completely changing interface every major release
* Keeps getting better (some commercial software seems to bloat beyond repair)

* Available on many platforms

* All of the above for FREE

Now I dont need to do vector graphics every week, not even every month. But for those couple of times a year it's good to have a tool in your box. Inkscape is there for me, no need to buy a (subscription) license. No need to boot into another OS. No need to relearn it. More than complete feature set for my needs.

Congrats to the team!

Re:Inkscape 1.0 Beta 1 by Andrew_nenakhov on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @04:54AM (#21003441)
Unfortunately, this 'not completely changing interface' has a side effect: it fails to evolve and become better.

I am a long-time user of Inkscape (since 2007 at least), and it is sad how poor it looks now next to Sketch/Figma. Their vector tools are better, their layer tools are better. It's a million little things that make drawing a similar shape in Sketch 50x faster than in Inkscape.

Re:Inkscape 1.0 Beta 1 by atoav on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @05:05AM (#21003484)
This is what stops me of using it as a professional user: you can get things done, but the processes are more convoluted and less intuitive.

The way Blender does it is near optimum in my eyes: not shying away from a major overhaul once in 5 years and aleays making sure it is really making things better.

Re:Inkscape 1.0 Beta 1 by robert_foss on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @05:15AM (#21003525)
I would think Blender does a good job too, but inkscape has no paid contributors. If it had people employed to work on it, I think you would see more attention being paid to UI.

Blender is one of the most successful projects out there, and assuming other projects could just 'do what Blender does' is ignoring some of the fundamental differences between Blender and smaller projects.

Re:Inkscape 1.0 Beta 1 by Crinus on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @05:41AM (#21003621)
It isn't so much the paid contributors (though they help) as it is that Blender Foundation was making commercial quality projects for years using Blender with artists and programmers at the same place so they were able to provide immediate feedback to each other.

The closest other projects have to this are vague forum/bugtracker posts that more often than not give little (or misleading) idea to the programmers what is needed.

Having an artist sit next to you and giving them the mouse and keyboard to show you directly in the software what they are doing, how they are doing it and what they want to do is much faster and gives you way more information and you can bounce forth and back alternative ideas, perhaps make minor quick modifications on the spot as a prototype or lead to an idea, etc.

(the next best thing is you being both the artist and the programmer - which is how many of FLOSS art oriented programs are made really - but there is a great danger of you getting used to your software's drawbacks and being unwilling to address them)

Re:Inkscape 1.0 Beta 1 by jorvi on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @06:51AM (#21003939)
Much more importantly, Blender doesn't shy away from getting inspired by their proprietary counterparts. AFAIK they're even working on a 'industry keybinds' setting which makes changing over from Maya a breeze.

Programs like GIMP (or even entire OS UIs like Gnome and KDE) often shy away from 'aping' respectively Photoshop or Apple. But those proprietary vendors have spent millions of dollars on focus groups and man hours to optimize their UI and UX. Benefiting from that seems like a no-brainer, but alas.. NIH and proprietary hate reigns supreme.

Re:Inkscape 1.0 Beta 1 by Crinus on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @07:08AM (#21004018)
Eh, Photoshop hasn't really optimized their UI/UX, their UI goes back to the original MacPaint by Bill Atkinson (Photoshop started as a more powerful MacPaint) and has evolved over the years starting from that. It is just that it became a very common UI for similar applications and the reason to make something similar isn't because Adobe has spent millions optimizing it, but because a lot of people are already familiar with it. However the same can be said for GIMP's UI nowadays.

And really personally i find Photoshop UI atrocious and if i had to chose between that and GIMP's i'd pick GIMP any time (though overall i actually prefer PSP7's UI which IMO is the best of any of those).

Re:Inkscape 1.0 Beta 1 by WhitneyLand on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @02:03PM (#21008154)
I agree with the spirit of jorvi's comment but your specific point points are notable.

Last time I checked ps still defaulted to require control-shift-something-non-standard for redo, unless you customize the key mappings. there are much more standard bindings and they even admit the only reason for this default is legacy users .

Re:Inkscape 1.0 Beta 1 by Crinus on Thursday September 19, 2019 @07:09AM (#21015123)
If you refer to Ctrl+Shift+Z, it is very common for redo and also very convenient since you switch between undo/redo by pressing Shift (which is also consistent with many other shortcuts that use Shift as a way to reverse their effect - see Tab/Shift+Tab, Alt+Tab/Shift+Alt+Tab, etc). Many programs provide both shortcuts for redo (including by OS vendors, e.g. Microsoft) though they're not always shown in the Edit menu (f.e. Notepad++ shows both whereas Visual Studio only shows Ctrl+Y but also supports Ctrl+Shift+Z)

Having said that i think Photoshop's non-standard Undo/Redo use is that it uses Ctrl+Z as a "last step undo" in that Ctrl+Z flips between undo/redo so that if you do some operation, press Ctrl+Z, it undoes that operation and if you press Ctrl+Z again it redoes it (and Ctrl+Z again undoes it, etc). This is because Photoshop at the past, like many other programs, had only a single step undo where Ctrl+Z would undo the last operation - including undo itself (so if you painted, undo would undo the paint and the next undo would undo the undo itself thus restoring the paint). Many artists used to this as a way to quickly compare the result of operations like crops, filters, etc so it became part of their workflow and was mentioned in articles, books, etc so Adobe most likely decided to use a different key when they introduced an undo stack. That was at a time that many other programs still had a single undo step so using a different key wouldn't really be non-standard. But again that became part of workflow, documented, etc so both remained as they were to avoid alienating users.

Though TBH that is based on my very brief use of Photoshop many many years ago, things may have changed since then.

Note that some simple programs still work like that, e.g. Notepad only has a single level of undo and pressing undo again undoes the undo itself.

Re:Inkscape 1.0 Beta 1 by WhitneyLand on Thursday September 19, 2019 @12:35PM (#21017866)
I think we're agreeing after the fog clears of remembering the details.

To be more precise, after looking again the issue was, there was no way to use control-z for multiple undo without remapping the keyboard. Looks like they finally fixed it:

In older versions of Photoshop, you could only press Ctrl + Z once to undo your most recent change. If you wanted to undo more changes, you had to change the shortcut keys to Ctrl + Alt + Z.

from version 20.0.0 (CC 2019) onwards, we can just press Ctrl + Z which makes things a little easier

There was a blog post by a product engineering at adobe that lamented they had to stick with it for so long for legacy reasons. This supports your point that many parts of the UX would likely be much different given a modern clean sheet design.

Re:Inkscape 1.0 Beta 1 by o-__-o on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @12:35PM (#21007075)
Gimp is garbage bro. A window for each tool? That your WM manages? Okay where is that tools window or layers window or what if I’m editing 20 icons and one of my icons was covered by a browser window. At least old photoshop would remember z order and bring them to the surface and keep tools on top. Gimp May have fixed this one issue but it’s an example of why paid UX design wins 99 times out of 10
Re:Inkscape 1.0 Beta 1 by axelf4 on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @02:02PM (#21008139)
Gimp has had a single-window layout for a long time now.
Re:Inkscape 1.0 Beta 1 by o-__-o on Saturday September 21, 2019 @02:56PM (#21037188)
So has photoshop ;). I think you are forgetting the thread you replied to
Re:Inkscape 1.0 Beta 1 by aagd on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @06:05AM (#21003736)
Inkscape vector tools are way more sophisticated than Sketch’s. For simple vector editing tasks Sketch might be ok, and for creating whole responsive screen designs Sketch is awesome. But vector editing is really one of Sketch’s weakest points (eg. creation of combined paths). The look of the UI is of course not comparable, but i’d prefer functionality over looks.
Re:Inkscape 1.0 Beta 1 by rubidium on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @07:29AM (#21004146)
It doesn’t need to be any better to satisfy this user. I also pull it out 2-4 times a year and am happy that everything has more or less stayed the same for 8+ years.
Re:Inkscape 1.0 Beta 1 by ken on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @09:52AM (#21005430)
This is the message I hear very consistently about Inkscape. The people who love it most are the occasional users. It's good enough for small, infrequent work.

They seem to keep pushing it as a professional alternative to Adobe Illustrator, but no matter how many individual features they add, it just doesn't seem designed for that kind of user.

Re:Inkscape 1.0 Beta 1 by cies on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @08:28AM (#21004605)
That was my point. Sure it could be better, but at a cost (design+dev'p, and alienation of users). It seems big/commercial softwares love to take that cost.
Re:Inkscape 1.0 Beta 1 by eXpl0it3r on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @08:58AM (#21004887)
Because they have paying and active customers who want improvements even if it means that one has to relearn some things here and there.

Not enhancing UX because some users might have already gotten used to the current setup is rather shortsighted (relevant XKCD: https://xkcd.com/1172/ ). What about all the people you don't get on board because the UX is terrible compared to all the other tools?

Re:Inkscape 1.0 Beta 1 by tempguy9999 on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @12:31PM (#21007041)
> they have paying and active customers who want improvements

My experience is that when software reaches a certain level of maturity, major 'improvements' to the UI are driven very much not by the users.

> Not enhancing UX because some users might have already gotten used to the current setup is rather shortsighted

Perhaps. It depends proportion of 'some'. 1%..99%, it depends doesn't it. You're pushing for change with no quantification of the value of it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it, so first find out if it's broke.

Re:Inkscape 1.0 Beta 1 by blitmap on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @09:11AM (#21005011)
I do agree with you. There's an advantage to having an interface remain predictable. At the same time I wish you had the ability to dynamically re-arrange the UI with plugins. It'd be very cool to have a Sketch-emulating layout for Inkscape, as a plugin.
Re:Inkscape 1.0 Beta 1 by Freak_NL on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @03:35AM (#21003116)
IInkscape is just there for us when we need it; it's one of those staple FOSS applications that just is. I've been using it since the Sodipodi days; that's more than fifteen years ago!

Inkscape is pretty extensible as well. It's not too hard to write plugins for it (in Python). I've did it myself, and love how a handful of people seem to find it of use¹.

1: https://inkscape.org/~jdhoek/%E2%98%85isometric-projection-c...

Re:Inkscape 1.0 Beta 1 by Erlich_Bachman on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @04:18AM (#21003304)
> * Keeps getting better (some commercial software seems to bloat beyond repair)

Adobe's video editing suite of latest versions is actually well known to be buggy in terms of regular crashes and hangings. It took me many months to realize that the problem was not inferior CPU or drivers or other software or virtual machines or little memory, but that their software is straight up buggy. That's a company that charges hundreds of dollars for their suite and also a company that had a perfectly good software before and have also basically owned the market before. Now it is buggy and crashes. What other software even crashes these days? I have to think back several years when I remember office suites crashing or other complicated software. It is really a disgrace on Adobe's part. This is not a single user experience either, there is a general consensus now among video editors that this is the case with Premiere and After Effects.

Re:Inkscape 1.0 Beta 1 by atoav on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @05:09AM (#21003499)
I am an extensive user of Premiere and After Effects and didn’t experience a single crash that was to blame on Adobe within the last 12 months.

The crashes I had were due to 3rd party plugins. I am slowly replacing AE with Blender now, but for certain stuff I still like it.

Re:Inkscape 1.0 Beta 1 by Erlich_Bachman on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @05:21AM (#21003550)
My crashes were definitely due to Adobe. It was latest updated Windows, Nvidia card with latest drivers, latest adobe, plenty of free space and RAM, etc. It crashed even without any plugins.

Also as an additional thought, is it really that good that they make such a big software that can be crashed because of a plugin? They know there will be a plugin Zoo out there, they know the plugins sometimes have to use GPU on their own, which brings many troubles with drivers etc, - they still can't manage to just isolate in in their own processes? Plugins are used all the time, it's an industry of itself. Company of the size of Adobe can't foresee that some plugins will be unstable and they need to take care of it? The dreaded chrome can isolate websites in their own processes, Adobe can't do the same with a mere plugin??

Re:Inkscape 1.0 Beta 1 by justinclift on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @06:03AM (#21003724)
Just to check, did you run a full memory check / burn in test on the computer? eg memtest86 or similar

Sometimes this kind of thing turns out to be memory with a problem at some address. :/

Re:Inkscape 1.0 Beta 1 by Erlich_Bachman on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @06:58PM (#21011351)
Could always be a good think to check, thank you. This thing happen on different hardware for me though, reliably.
Re:Inkscape 1.0 Beta 1 by colejohnson66 on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @11:47AM (#21006587)
LinusTechTips had a weird bug with some Adobe product (I think Premiere) where, IIRC, it crashed if the project was read off the disk too fast
Re:Inkscape 1.0 Beta 1 by Erlich_Bachman on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @06:56PM (#21011337)
I've had projects where literally just opening the project and scrolling through it (moving the cursor) crashed the program reliably within 20 seconds/10-20 scrollings. This made me think their QA is a joke at this point.
Re:Inkscape 1.0 Beta 1 by gnud on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @06:13AM (#21003779)
The DirectShow filters adobe installs with Premiere makes other programs crash, for me. I've had to disable them.

Now, it's possible that this was technically the other programs' fault, but on the other hand you can't blame them for not testing their video playback with all different filters installed. Why does Adobe add these filters globally with a high ranking if they're not drop-in-replacements for the 'normal' ones?

Re:Inkscape 1.0 Beta 1 by Erlich_Bachman on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @07:04PM (#21011407)
By the way, if anyone is looking for an alternative right now, the industry (well at least the amateur community) seems to be moving towards Davinci Resolve (as Premiere replacement) which has a free version (very functional, can export up to 4k videos), has a linux version (!) (with some limitations) and has been much more stable for me so far.
Re:Inkscape 1.0 Beta 1 by atoav on Sunday September 22, 2019 @03:39PM (#21043449)
I am actually already using resolve for grading, I wouldn’t really recommend it for full time editors yet, but for ambitioned amateurs it might be the best deal om the market right now
Re:Inkscape 1.0 Beta 1 by TheSpiceIsLife on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @03:16AM (#21003052)
And built in opening and save as DXF!

Being able rapidly and precisely build an item in 2D CAD, then do the graphic design component on Inkscape is amazing.

More recently I’m moving to do the graphic design part in Affinity Designer due to a couple of irritating bugs in Inkscape... but it doesn’t have export to DXF... But Inkscape is what taught me vector graphics, and I’m still using it as my default vector graphics app in my day job as a laser cutter operator-extraordinaire.

Re:Inkscape 1.0 Beta 1 by twelvechairs on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @04:10AM (#21003266)
Big ones for me are Firefox, Inkscape, QGIS, Blender
Re:Inkscape 1.0 Beta 1 by new2628 on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @04:13AM (#21003277)
Firefox does tend to reshuffle the interface occasionally though.
Re:Inkscape 1.0 Beta 1 by mkl on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @05:10AM (#21003505)
Not nearly as significantly as Blender though!
Re:Inkscape 1.0 Beta 1 by SquishyPanda23 on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @10:35AM (#21005843)
Xfig is open source and has barely changed since 1991, but I don't think that's a feature.

Learning to use updates to a UI is relatively cheap. Having a bunch of tools that are outdated is expensive.

Inkscape is great for what it is, but it could definitely use a well thought out interface refresh.

Re:Inkscape 1.0 Beta 1 by jayalpha on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @10:45AM (#21005941)
"* Learn how to use it once * Keep using it for a life time"

Yeah, right. Like Xara XL

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xara_Xtreme_LX

Re:Inkscape 1.0 Beta 1 by misterdoubt on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @09:33AM (#21005219)
I want to mess with vector graphics about twice a year, and I do essentially zero visual work beyond that.

Every time I'm pleased at how easy Inkscape makes it. And it's completely smooth on both Linux and Windows.