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Re:College, Calculus, and the Problem with the SAT by gumby on Thursday September 12, 2019 @11:02AM (#20952245)
> This is all just leading to college becoming four more years of high school. Everyone needs to go.

You point out a shift never discussed: 40 years ago you could graduate and be prepared for middle class life and as a member of civic society (home ec, how to vote, etc) — for free! It was assumed that it was in everybody’s interest for everyone to have a reasonable baseline.

Now the baseline preparation isn’t free, so a significant section (majority) of adults aren’t getting adequate preparation. Is that really what we want?

Re:College, Calculus, and the Problem with the SAT by jeffdavis on Thursday September 12, 2019 @11:08AM (#20952311)
Maybe we should bring the baseline in high schools up? Maybe people should leave high school more prepared?

Otherwise, you'll just be saying the same thing about the same students after college: they're unprepared.

No. Time box your time to get prepared, and do it.

Also, there is no such thing as free. Every year costs a year of your life, possibly disrupting your chances to have biological children.

Re:College, Calculus, and the Problem with the SAT by aphextim on Thursday September 12, 2019 @01:42PM (#20954194)
A big thing I see is they keep pushing the idea on the younger generation that if you do not go to college you will fail, work McDonald's your whole life etc.

They easily load the kids up with student loans/debt and have courses/advisers readily available to sign them up and get them what they need to get into college.

I do not remember in my high school, one class about financial literacy or how the best way to pay back student loans.

No one informed us well of the risks of taking out private loans to cover what the federal loans don't cover.

No alternative options are promoted heavily, sure there may be an army recruiter or a weekend where they showcase some trades you could get into, but they never explain union/trades.

I wish they told me that at 18, I could join a Union (Carpenter, Laborer, Millwright) and enroll in a 4 year apprenticeship where you start at 60% scale your first year (Make $18 right out of high school), work while learning your skill with a 10% increase each year over 4 years so by the end of your 4 year apprenticeship when you receive your journeyman card you are making $28+, I think more people would at least consider that course if they are more hands on and like to fix stuff.

Re:College, Calculus, and the Problem with the SAT by rmah on Thursday September 12, 2019 @04:06PM (#20955842)
I went to HS in the 1980's and we had classes in financial literacy (though I think it was called "business" or "economics" or something like that) as an elective. It covered the basics of interest rates, what loans were and how they worked. What banks and insurance was for. The basics of how business works. Etc. We also had trades training available, everything from carpentry and metalworking to auto repair and media broadast (radio/tv). And this was a rather middling high school in a small town in the midwest.

What didn't we have? Well, I didn't know what an AP test was until I got to university and it was too late, so there's that. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

Re:College, Calculus, and the Problem with the SAT by bilbo0s on Thursday September 12, 2019 @11:22AM (#20952493)
>Time box your time to get prepared, and do it.

That's kind of asking the impossible. Innovation and advancement don't stand still like that. A middle or high school should not be faulted for not knowing what technologies will be in use in 20 years. Quite literally, they can't teach technologies that have not been invented yet. So, again, they pursue the only practical strategy available to them, they teach a general course of study that gives students the ability to absorb and understand what future trainers will teach them. They can't do job training because they literally have no idea what kind of good jobs will be out there when this kid turns 30.

Just make sure the kid is able to absorb the training whatever boss s/he has gives him/her. That's about the best the schools can do. Employers and college really do have to do the rest.

Re:College, Calculus, and the Problem with the SAT by jeffdavis on Thursday September 12, 2019 @11:47AM (#20952822)
I'm not saying people shouldn't learn abstract thinking. I'm just saying "get it over with".
Re:College, Calculus, and the Problem with the SAT by bilbo0s on Thursday September 12, 2019 @12:00PM (#20953013)
And I'm saying you can't just "get it over with" sometimes because you can't really know what "it" is?

A kid is in middle school or high school or whatever and then 20 years later they are on an employer's doorstep. The tools and technologies that employer uses were not even invented when that kid was in middle or high school. Well, unless that kid's had some additional training in those intervening years, they're probably not going to know how to use the tools that the employer wants them to use. So it's appropriate for the employer to hire, instead, the kid who has had the training during those intervening years.

We currently call most of that training "college". If you want to call it "university", or "post high school", or "adult campus learning", or whatever, then do that if it makes it a bit more palatable. Call it whatever you like, but employers kind of need these kids to have it. And they'll only need them to have it more in the future. That's just the nature of our ever advancing society. That's actually a good thing believe it or not.

Re:College, Calculus, and the Problem with the SAT by Amezarak on Thursday September 12, 2019 @01:26PM (#20954023)
Alternatively, schools assume responsibility for giving students a broad, general background and teaching them to think abstractly, with higher education involved in teaching students theoretical aspects of their concentration.

At the same time, employers will just have to train employees on the specific technologies and tools they need them to use in practice, rather than offloading the burden to society at large.

This also ameliorates the 'retraining' problem for older workers.

Re:College, Calculus, and the Problem with the SAT by jeffdavis on Thursday September 12, 2019 @04:13PM (#20955931)
Your central assumption is that four more years without a job is the only way to learn whatever you need (abstract, practical, whatever). I just disagree.

Efficient processes measure outputs/results, like what people actually learn or accomplish after all that time.

But many people in this thread are measuring inputs, like, just put in four more years of time and money and that must be good for everyone, right?

Re:College, Calculus, and the Problem with the SAT by willismichael on Thursday September 12, 2019 @11:15AM (#20952394)

    possibly disrupting your chances to have biological children
You can have children while attending college. I did it, and I know plenty of other people that did it and it didn't ruin their life.
Re:College, Calculus, and the Problem with the SAT by jeffdavis on Thursday September 12, 2019 @11:23AM (#20952506)
True, but it's not for everyone and not without its own costs and complications. That's why I said "possibly". The main point is that nothing is really free, it's costing time, opportunities, etc.
Re:College, Calculus, and the Problem with the SAT by sethammons on Thursday September 12, 2019 @05:13PM (#20956521)
I had my first kid when I was fifteen. I'm doing alright, but I would not recommend it! Later is better. My former boss had his first kid at 40. He would not recommend it as earlier is better. The sweet spot is probably mid twenties for starting.
Re:College, Calculus, and the Problem with the SAT by smileysteve on Thursday September 12, 2019 @02:34PM (#20954768)
> 40 years ago you could graduate and be prepared for middle class life and as a member of civic society

While statistically, I'm sure this applies; I see many examples of successful tradesmen making greater than a middle class life for themselves because of their hobbies during high school; things that shop class and apprenticeships in high school teach; no degree strictly required.

Re:College, Calculus, and the Problem with the SAT by gumby on Thursday September 12, 2019 @06:08PM (#20956986)
Well that’s kind of my point. Tradies usually get paid during their apprenticeship so start life out properly.

Were you talking about hose who left at 16 and went straight into a trade? Still no need to pay through the nose to have a good life and be a solid citizen.