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Re:Compensation in 2019 – new grad tech offers by pb7 on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @05:28PM (#20944936)
Are you sure? Because it sure sounds like you disagree that these people deserve to be making large sums of money and then also not be appreciative of it. I would call that placing blame.
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Re:Compensation in 2019 – new grad tech offers by balfirevic on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @05:56PM (#20945170)
> Saying that these grads don't deserve that much money

Of course they deserve it - the money belongs to their employer and they decided to part with it in exchange for the services of those grads.

Whatever it is that you're trying to say hinges entirely on what you think the concept of "to deserve something" means. And you really haven't elaborated much on that (if at all, as far as I can see).

Re:Compensation in 2019 – new grad tech offers by tidepod12 on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @06:08PM (#20945283)
When I say "deserve" I mean it in a broader sense that considers more aspects of our society than just "a company is willing to pay that much".

Sure, Facebook is probably willing to pay a mediocre engineer much more than they are willing to pay the best teacher in the world. That makes sense, because Facebook doesn't hire teachers and has no reason to pay a teacher a lot of money. In this sense, the teacher doesn't "deserve" a lot of money from Facebook, while the engineer might.

But speaking in a broader sense, do you think that a mediocre 22 year old engineer "deserves" more money and a better lifestyle than the best teacher in the world?

Re:Compensation in 2019 – new grad tech offers by balfirevic on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @06:49PM (#20945656)
> But speaking in a broader sense, do you think that a mediocre 22 year old engineer "deserves" more money and a better lifestyle than the best teacher in the world?

Well, first of all, it is very unlikely that the "best teacher in the world" simply works in school. And if they do - then it is by choice.

Second, it would of course not matter if said mediocre engineer is 22 or 66 years old - maybe you just included it for the sake of illustration but it does give some ageism vibes.

Anyway, since you have still not elaborated on what "to deserve" means to you, I will tell you how I think about it. When I think "someone doesn't deserve something" it implies "this should not be so". Now we have a question - can we and should we do something about it? Either on a personal level, or on collective governmental level.

In this particular case - it would depend on having a way to objectively determine teacher's skill level and whether disproportionately high skill level would translate to similarly disproportional effects in their teaching (both in the individual pupil results and the number of pupils they are able to reach). All of that is required because they are paid by public money - private tutors can get paid whatever their clients are willing to pay.

If we are able to do that, I might say such a great teacher deserves to be paid lot of money, comparable to what Facebook pays it's engineers. Otherwise, I would not presume to say that any particular teacher should (which is the same as "deserves" for me) command a salary based on what few big tech companies are willing to pay fresh grads.

Re:Compensation in 2019 – new grad tech offers by tidepod12 on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @07:08PM (#20945757)
>In this particular case - it would depend on having a way to objectively determine teacher's skill level

This might be putting the cart before the horse. You may not find very "high skill level" teachers, but that's not a justifiable reason to not pay them. The way to get high skill level teachers is likely to attract people with high skill with a higher pay.

How do we make pay for teachers higher? I don't know exactly, and I don't want to start a political debate, but one idea might be to collect taxes from the giant FAANG companies and use those taxes to pay teachers more, rather than just letting the FAANGs frivolously throw the money around. I think that would be a better use of the money rather than letting billions (or in the case of a commenter here, $11k/month) sit in a bank account doing nothing.

>When I think "someone doesn't deserve something" it implies "this should not be so"

This is what I'm saying, too, but I think I'm applying it differently. I'm not looking narrowly at a CS grad's salary and saying "this should not be so". I'm looking at CS grad salaries in relation to salaries of other crucial-to-society professions like teachers, and saying that the disparity "should not be so".

Re:Compensation in 2019 – new grad tech offers by balfirevic on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @07:17PM (#20945822)
You have already started a political debate with your first comment, whether you wanted to or not.

But I just want to notice that you seem very willing to command other people's money based on the most casual of observations and lot of emotion. That will not lead to a good place, policy wise.

Re:Compensation in 2019 – new grad tech offers by tidepod12 on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @07:25PM (#20945861)
Wait, what? Pointing out that CS grads make more money than teacher is political?

This reminds me of a HN post a few weeks ago about how SFers have the tendency to take a discussion about anything and see it as political.

>But I just want to notice that you seem very willing to command other people's money

At no point other than the comment that was written in response to your question asking how I would allocate money have I suggested "commanding" anyone else's money. It's very disingenuous of you to ask me a question, and then use the fact that I responded to that question as means to bash me.

Re:Compensation in 2019 – new grad tech offers by balfirevic on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @07:44PM (#20945983)
> 22 and 23 year olds making $200k+ a year? For doing what, exactly? > Meanwhile teachers, researchers, nurses etc (of which many also live in SF, by the way) are making pennies and some literally starving to survive.

That is political. It's not an insult, it's just that it's literally about the policies of how we pay teachers, nurses and researchers and how we constrain (or not) large tech salaries.

And I'm not from SF, not even from US.

> At no point other than the comment that was written in response to your question asking how I would allocate money have I suggested "commanding" anyone else's money. It's very disingenuous of you to ask me a question, and then use the fact that I responded to that question as means to bash me.

I never asked you how you would allocate money, I just asked what you mean by "deserve". And BTW, this: "collect taxes from the giant FAANG companies and use those taxes to pay teachers more, rather than just letting the FAANGs frivolously throw the money around" is commanding other peoples money.

Also, I don't believe I bashed you, but there would be nothing disingenuous in asking you a question and then bashing you based on the answer. It would just not be nice or appropriate for HN.

Re:Compensation in 2019 – new grad tech offers by tidepod12 on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @07:55PM (#20946054)
>That is political.

It isn't political. Nothing in my comment at all talks about the policies of how we pay anyone. If you read my words and then your mind took the leap to thinking about those policies, then you apparently have a tendency to politicize things, but that doesn't make my comment political.

Regardless, your original statement was that it "started a political debate", and I'll concede that it did apparently do that.

>I never asked you how you would allocate money, I just asked what you mean by "deserve".

You asked what we could "do about it", referencing teacher pay and allocation of funds for that pay.

>Also, I don't believe I bashed you, but there would be nothing disingenuous in asking you a question and then bashing you based on the answer. It would just not be nice or appropriate for HN.

You didn't bash me based on the answer, you bashed me for even accepting the premise of the question, a question that you asked.

Re:Compensation in 2019 – new grad tech offers by pb7 on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @05:39PM (#20945021)
Okay, let's agree to disagree on the terminology. What exact solution do you propose? Do people stop accepting this money? Do they thank their cashiers extra generously because they make 10x more? What is the actionable step here that would make it all okay in your eyes?
Re:Compensation in 2019 – new grad tech offers by tidepod12 on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @05:46PM (#20945069)
>Okay, let's agree to disagree on the terminology.

No, let's not. If we're going to have a discussion, we're at least going to agree on the actual meaning of words, otherwise attempting to discuss them is going to be fruitless.

To blame means to assign responsibility for a fault or wrong. At no point in my comment above did I assign responsibility to anyone for any fault or wrong. In this case, the "fault or wrong" would be being paid too high. Again, nowhere in my comment did I say, or even imply that the new grads are responsible for their high pay. That fault would (obviously) lie with the people willing to give them such high pay.

Based on this, you can now see why the rest of your comment doesn't make sense. The new grads aren't responsible for doing anything (they don't have to not accept the money or whatever) because it isn't their fault in the first place.

Re:Compensation in 2019 – new grad tech offers by random314 on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @05:57PM (#20945182)
At this point it is clear that you are not engaging in discussion in good faith.

Envy followed by anger is a common human emotion and every person has to find their own path to come to terms with it.

Re:Compensation in 2019 – new grad tech offers by pb7 on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @05:52PM (#20945138)
From the fact that you took a dump on the steps of this thread and have repeatedly refused to back up or explain your points both to me and others who responded to you by arguing over semantics and side stepping questions, I'm just going to assume you are acting in bad faith.
Re:Compensation in 2019 – new grad tech offers by tidepod12 on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @05:54PM (#20945155)
I know that saying "now you're just arguing semantics" is a smug way to get out of having to participate in an actual discussion, but it's silly to do that here. You brought up the claim of blame, and now you're backpedaling when it's revealed that you used the word incorrectly. It's not arguing semantics when your entire point rests on the meaning of the word.

If you aren't willing to abide by the actual meaning of words when you attempt to use them, you're the bad faith actor, and a discussion is going to get us nowhere.

Re:Compensation in 2019 – new grad tech offers by mattkrause on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @07:46PM (#20945993)
Raise taxes in a fairly progressive way.

Use that money to fund education, healthcare, public parks, infrastructure, basic research, etc, including by paying the people doing that work a bit more.