A suicide is certainly different from a homicide, but counting them in this context still makes sense, seeing how suicide incidence correlates with access to effective means [1][2].

[1] https://www.who.int/mental_health/prevention/suicide/pestici...

[2] http://www.idph.state.il.us/about/chronic/Suicide-and-Access...

So what about Japan then? IIRC they have a pretty high suicide rate and no guns.

The point still stands: 3333 to 800 is pretty bad and demonstrates that the original quote is, as claimed, false.

Sure, but since we're discussing numbers based in reality it should be brought up.

> the AR-15 which kills less than bare hands

Right but the AR-15 kills more people each year than the bare hands of people named Robert.

Are you sure? "People named Robert" is about 1% of the relevant population (15-25 year old men) since ~0.5% of people born in that birth range were named Robert, and while AR-15 pattern rifles are extremely common I'm not sure what proportion of them are actually called that.

From this data [0] there were 248 people killed by rifles - all rifles, of any kind - and 660 killed by "personal weapons", a category that includes "hands, fists, feet, etc." in the US in 2014. Assuming people named "Robert" kill people at the same rate as other male names, that would be 6.6 murders - so let's round down and call it 6 to account for the occasional "not hands" killing. That would mean that for AR-15 murders to match "Robert's hands" murders you'd need ~3% of rifle murders to be with that gun.

So it seems plausible to me that the two are closely comparable.

0: https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2016/06/fb...

So do baseball bats and screwdrivers?

It is considered the same as homicide for the purpose of counting gun deaths. The reason for counting them the same is that both are deaths by gun. Likewise, hammer homicides and accidents are counted the same too in that stat.

They are not counted the same in homicide stats.

And I would contend that very important nuance is all too often lost, it people tend to use it in reference to gun homicide, and often make comparison against other forms of homicide. Doesn't make sense to compare gun homicide + gun suicide to, say, hammer homicide.

Can you find a single case of hammer suicide? It’s a very poor choice.

Anyway, the real issue is you seem to be trolling rather than bringing anything meaningful to the discussion. What’s your actual point within the context of watch lists?