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Re:A Town for People with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome by interpenetrate on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @07:00PM (#20872197)
stomach ulcers were an epidemic problem in the western world in the 1970s and have since virtually vanished. in 1982, a bacteria named helicobacter pylori was discovered and was said to cause IBS, cancer, stomach ulcers, and so on. nevermind that two-thirds of the world's population have this bacteria present in their gut (most showing no symptoms). a medication targeting the bacteria was discovered and then the incidence rate for stomach ulcers plummeted dramatically. not the cure rate, the incidence rate: people stopped contracting stomach ulcers in the first place. somehow, the illness no longer served its purpose (!). this is a confounding proposition so most are quick to come up with alternative explanations (maybe pry internet_user, resident M.D.). indeed the medical industries will offer you some explanations if you can't come up with any on your own that explain away any possible psychosocial etiology.
Re:A Town for People with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome by erentz on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @07:23PM (#20872381)
So you're saying: 1. People thought they had stomach ulcers. 2. Then we learned a lot more about what stomach ulcers actually are and how to treat them. 3. With that improved knowledge it turned out a lot of those people didn't actually have stomach ulcers. 4. So naturally the incidence rate of stomach ulcers goes down, because people are no longer misdiagnosed as having stomach ulcers. 5. ... 6. Somehow jump to conclusion that all those who thought they had stomach ulcers were making it up and it was a psychosocial illness, for which no evidence is provided.

It seems like people had symptoms that were mistaken for stomach ulcers in the popular knowledge of the time. The incidence rate going down for stomach ulcers after learning more about stomach ulcers tells us nothing about what happened to those people. We don't know what they were really suffering from, what they might now-a-days be diagnosed with, etc. And we aren't told anything here about what other environmental factors may have led to a decline.

Re:A Town for People with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome by interpenetrate on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @07:35PM (#20872489)
stomach ulcers of course exist. these things are really messy and are a source of internal bleeding. no one was "making it up" (?).

the question is one about etiology. the history suggests that the popular etiology (bacteria and probably also NSAIDs linearly cause stomach ulcers) is entirely insufficient. the questions you're asking ("we don't know what they were really suffering from") are important, but to most people these questions don't matter anymore. there is practically no medical research being done on these questions today. why bother? the "psychosomatic school" is the only school who takes the issue seriously anymore. their work is worth considering, that's my point.

Re:A Town for People with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome by h0l0cube on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @08:39PM (#20872871)
My cousin has being diagnosed formally with MCS and co-morbid CFS, both illnesses with some controversy. I've spent time with them, and learnt that the "psychosomatic school" has always been the prevailing school of thought on the subject, and this presents many hurdles to their every day life, and potential treatment.

The possibility that there's at least a component of the illnesses that aren't psychosomatic is worth considering, but such a school of thought has always been on the fringes, and serious funding to examine actual causation has always been a challenge for illness communities that have offhandedly been thrown straight into the looney bin.

Re:A Town for People with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome by interpenetrate on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @09:04PM (#20873022)
yes the most successful analytic practice would be the one that could successfully traverse the boundaries we've constructed between mind and body. the idea is that h. pylori, for example, has a role to play (one way or another) in the reproduction of stomach ulcers, but the bacteria is not linearly causal. rather, it is situated in a complex dialectic web that modern medicine (and the "psychosomatic school" for that matter) are mostly unequipped to analyze. this is reflected in the gross failure of the diagnostic taxonomy produced by the medical/psychiatric industry whose validity should be (but is rarely) continuously questioned.

for what it's worth the "psychosomatic school" i'm most familiar with criticizes harshly the "psychosomatic school" that i believe you're familiar with. indeed there are many ineffective and harmful centers for the treatment of "chronic illnesses." it's really shameful

Re:A Town for People with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome by sjg007 on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @07:27PM (#20872425)
The researchers drank a tube of it and got ulcers. Pretty conclusive.
Re:A Town for People with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome by tomhoward on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @08:59AM (#20876732)
As user interpenetrate wrote, two-thirds of the world's population have the bacteria, and most don't get ulcers or other symptoms.

A more complete telling of the story may be that researchers ingested a volume of the bacteria that was more than their immune system could easily contain, and got ulcers.

Given that stress is well known to be a cause of immune system impairment, this could still be an upstream cause of the bacterial outbreak that then leads to ulcer formation.

Re:A Town for People with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome by sjg007 on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @09:04AM (#20876783)
Yes so we agree that H. pylori is the cause.
Re:A Town for People with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome by tomhoward on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @09:11AM (#20876830)
A part of the cause.

In ordinary conditions (i.e., not drinking a vial of bacteria), immune impairment is a necessary condition (or cause) of the H. pylori outbreak.

And stress is one possible upstream cause of that.

Re:A Town for People with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome by H_Pylori on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @09:30AM (#20876992)
That could be said for every infectious illness. So does every infectious illness have a psychosomatic component too.
Re:A Town for People with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome by tomhoward on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @09:40AM (#20877080)
Some infections will be virulent even for people even with optimally functioning immune systems, if it's the kind of infection that acts faster than anyone's immune system's ability to respond, or if it's a new strain that no human's immune system can defend against.

But that aside, the virulence of an infection will always be greater against those who have weaker immune systems. This is why we always see the elderly and those with pre-existing serious illnesses more likely to be struck down or killed by infections.

Stress is just another factor that can lead to impaired immunity and result in an infection becoming virulent.

Re:A Town for People with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome by interpenetrate on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @05:09PM (#20881436)
lmfao nice account

it's an important point to make, that clearly there is an "organic" component and a "psychic" component to every ailment (or human experience for that matter). as anyone who has recovered from a primarily psychosomatic chronic illness can attest, you're eventually faced again with the contradiction between organic and psychic when you get your first head cold or whatever. this is a question of internal vs. external, dialectical vs. mechanical.

if someone murders me, we could assume this is a mechanical act. the immediate death obviously wasn't some sort of psychosomatic construction. no matter how mentally prepared i was for the moment the bullet pierced my forehead, a fundamental biological law asserted itself and there was nothing i could do about it.

but here we have no problem jumping straight to asking the question "what was the murderer's motive?" perhaps i was in the middle of robbing a bank. why was i robbing the bank? naturally these answers help construct the etiology of the death (and extend into other etiologies!). the question is: where do we draw the lines between moments? the radical answer is that we shouldn't. we should be willing at any moment to consider the many possible ways in which the various forces interact. bring the mechanical into the dialectic, so to speak.

in this light, is "stress" a useful etiological category? i don't think so, or at least i think its utility is much weaker than the pharmaceutical industry would hope.

freud had a client named elizabeth von r whose leg pain of two years was suddenly cured after working through its origin: her father, on his death bed, would rest his head on her legs as von r cared for him. was von r's leg pain caused by "stress?" hardly more than it was caused by "living." both of these proposed causes are obviously cop-outs.

edit: the point then is not to find the singular cause or plural causes. the point is to abstract the forces to analyze their underlying laws of motion and then to creatively synthesize them to predict and change the future. that's what science is. this is not the level of operation of our medical or psychiatric industries or their researchers.