Re:In the US, it's cheaper to build and operate wind farms t...
by unFou on Sunday August 18, 2019 @04:19AM
(#20728946)
What do you mean by producing twice as much in Summer to meet demand in Winter? Because much of our energy consumption is immediate, and can't be easily stored (e.g. heating, cooking, browsing the internet etc).
Re:In the US, it's cheaper to build and operate wind farms t...
by Tade0 on Sunday August 18, 2019 @04:29AM
(#20728986)
I think the GP meant having a peak capacity twice the size of peak demand.
Re:In the US, it's cheaper to build and operate wind farms t...
by lovemenot on Sunday August 18, 2019 @09:19AM
(#20729973)
>> it’s more likely to be Flow batteries or Hydrogen production.
From an engineering point of view, this statement probably should be correct. Hydrogen in particular has such wonderful potential.
But, we have to consider future economies of scale in production. We don't know how long it's cost-performance may continue to improve, but of the three technologies mentioned, unfortunately only LiIon is currently on an improvement curve that makes it feasible for large scale storage in the short-to-medium term.
Re:In the US, it's cheaper to build and operate wind farms t...
by Brakenshire on Sunday August 18, 2019 @09:37AM
(#20730050)
At the moment Lithium batteries are cost effective for about 2-4 hours of storage, if you halve costs that would go down to 4-8 hours, but the point is that it’s very unlikely that you will ever get reductions large enough to store energy over weeks or months. Even 2 days would require costs to fall to 10% of where they are now.
Re:In the US, it's cheaper to build and operate wind farms t...
by lovemenot on Sunday August 18, 2019 @09:52AM
(#20730128)
There seems to be an error in those assumptions.
Halving costs need not be equivalent to doubling of economic capacity. It might just as well cause an order of magnitude or higher of increased capacity.
I would not be able to estimate those factors, but it's almost certainly incorrect to assume a linear relationship between cost and productive capacity.
Re:In the US, it's cheaper to build and operate wind farms t...
by Brakenshire on Sunday August 18, 2019 @01:17PM
(#20731490)
Each halving in cost doubles the amount of storage you can apply to any one project for the same cost. 2 hour storage on a solar or wind farm costs around about £5 per MWh, levelized over the batteries lifetime. There is no way to get around that, as far as I can see.
In the long run energy storage techniques will come in which will displace some use cases for gas, how quickly that happens depends of technological development. As you say long term storage isn’t likely to be achieved by Lithium ion batteries, it’s more likely to be Flow batteries or Hydrogen production. Although Lithium batteries can shift storage throughout a day, and also balance the grid on near instantaneous timescales, which is useful.
Another possibility is overbuilding renewable generation, if solar is very cheap you could produce twice as much as you need in Summer in order to produce enough to meet demand in Winter. That can drastically reduce the need for long term storage, but depends on the properties and cost of the renewable technology in a particular location.