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Re:China lets yuan break 7-per-dollar level for first time i... by tedeh on Monday August 05, 2019 @06:47AM (#20612958)
Does anyone have any good links to how the trade war is affecting the Chinese economy and population? Most everything I read in the western press seems to mostly concern the "American consumer" and how him/her is hurting due to higher prices. It would be interesting to hear what's going on on the other side, too.
Re:China lets yuan break 7-per-dollar level for first time i... by businessinchina on Monday August 05, 2019 @09:42AM (#20614098)
I've run a business in China for over a decade and follow the macroeconomic situation here closely.

Here's the deal:

The Chinese economy became investment-driven instead of export-driven following the Great Financial Crisis. Exports are less important to GDP than real estate construction and infrastructure development (subways, high speed rail, bridges, etc).

In terms of exports, Europe is the biggest trading partner, not the US. The US is number 2.

The Chinese economy has a big problem: the government can drive GDP as much as it wants via state-driven investment and debt, but much of that is malinvestment and the debt cannot be self-funded. So there is and has been a large debt problem. This is why the Chinese economy has been slowing and the government has not found a politically acceptable way to tackle the problem.

The US trade war is basically kicking the Chinese economy while it's already down, but it's not the key source of the problems here.

Re:China lets yuan break 7-per-dollar level for first time i... by kurthr on Monday August 05, 2019 @11:11AM (#20614792)
It's not the key source of the problem, but the "Trade War" provides a useful political foil to avert responsibility and perhaps instute harsh remedies.
Re:China lets yuan break 7-per-dollar level for first time i... by duxup on Monday August 05, 2019 @11:22AM (#20614884)
I wonder how that plays if the long rumored debt problems actually create some sort of financial crisis.

The US as a foil works, but Chinese internal propaganda also talks about their strength and independence... if there is a serious crisis that hits the general populations, it's going to naturally raise questions that "If Xi and Co. made us so strong ... how is it US sanctions alone are to blame for this?"

Obviously there are options there but just from the outside looking in there seems to be a lot of pseudo "trust in Xi, he makes us strong" propaganda that would suddenly become problematic.

Re:China lets yuan break 7-per-dollar level for first time i... by lambdasquirrel on Monday August 05, 2019 @12:10PM (#20615251)
We should frankly be terrified the world over. You could well say the developed world all over has been investment-driven since the GFC. At least China's errors are visible. The world needed an orderly deleveraging. Instead we get trade wars and nationalism.
Re:China lets yuan break 7-per-dollar level for first time i... by duxup on Monday August 05, 2019 @12:38PM (#20615539)
>At least China's errors are visible.

I'm not sure I would describe it that way. There's a real lack of visibility in China I think.

Re:China lets yuan break 7-per-dollar level for first time i... by lambdasquirrel on Monday August 05, 2019 @02:07PM (#20616580)
Those ghost cities are pretty visible. When negative interest rates enable a company like Color, and then Color goes away, there's little to show for it.
Re:China lets yuan break 7-per-dollar level for first time i... by Supermancho on Monday August 05, 2019 @12:42PM (#20615582)
> orderly deleveraging. Instead we get trade wars and nationalism.

How else are you going to politically sell deleveraging? Nationalism ("made in america" stickers) weren't effective in the past. I do not believe it's going to be effective in steering capitalism now.

Re:China lets yuan break 7-per-dollar level for first time i... by lambdasquirrel on Monday August 05, 2019 @02:08PM (#20616592)
"Made in America" didn't work. But the trade war seems to be "working" as far as marketing goes.

That all said, there was some news the other day that most of the farm bailout has gone to big agricultural firms, so there's that...

Re:China lets yuan break 7-per-dollar level for first time i... by kuzehanka on Monday August 05, 2019 @10:08AM (#20614324)
> Exports are less important to GDP than real estate construction and infrastructure development (subways, high speed rail, bridges, etc).

Exports have stopped mattering several years ago. Manufacturing is increasingly being moved to Viet Nam, India, and Africa. Countries with cheaper labour costs and that don't steal your IP and lock you out of their domestic market as part of the manufacturing deal.

You forgot the ghost cities, the buildings that crumble before they are ever populated, and the roads that fall apart within a year of being built. The backbone of the Chinese realestate economy.

The chinese real-estate investment bubble is a bomb and the trade war is rapidly counting the timer down to 0. Is it a bubble? Yes it is, the Chinese government has had to put in multiple controls over the last 5 years to slow its growth and try to prevent it from bursting[1]. They're in a difficult position. Letting it keep growing will guarantee it bursts. Stopping it entirely will cease only source of the economic growth that's kept the population placated with the authoritative government.

The more wealthy and smarter Chinese have been investing overseas. That investment has fallen exponentially since the start of the trade war[2]. This bubble isn't going to hold up for more than 2 more years, assuming the trade war continues. And if it bursts, it'll hit the world economy pretty hard.

Recently the Chinese government has also put in tight controls on who can move money out of the country and how much. This was in response to everyone trying to move all their assets overseas as the trade war ramped up. They're even going after party members now[3].

tl;dr: China's economy is large, but most of it is a house of cards built on a bluff. That bluff has been called during a downturn that the CCP didn't know how to address in the first place. Anyone with the means to do so is folding, cashing out, and leaving the country or at least sending their children overseas[4].

[1] https://www.scmp.com/property/article/2080470/more-mainland-...

[2] https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-04-08/chinese-investment-in...

[3] https://www.scmp.com/economy/china-economy/article/2167731/d...

[4] https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/05/more-than-a-third-of-chinese...

Re:China lets yuan break 7-per-dollar level for first time i... by SlowRobotAhead on Monday August 05, 2019 @10:59AM (#20614700)
>The more wealthy and smarter Chinese have been investing overseas. That investment has fallen exponentially since the start of the trade war[2].

I’ve been around the world enough to see this first hand. Empty brand new offices in Malaysia, Taiwan, Indonesia. Big apartment investments in small cities in USA and Europe. Lots of both in the southern half of Africa.

Perhaps the most interesting were the giant empty office buildings in Asia. Brand new, but seemingly falling apart, elevator shafts open with wires hangout of control panel locations. Ready to fix up for the right client, but I wonder who that is and when they are coming?

Re:China lets yuan break 7-per-dollar level for first time i... by lofikrom on Monday August 05, 2019 @11:27AM (#20614913)
Crucially, if the so-called house of cards in China does crumble, we're likely to see residential and commercial real-estate suffer worldwide. This is the consequence of years of capital flight coming out of the country.
Re:China lets yuan break 7-per-dollar level for first time i... by buttcoinslol on Monday August 05, 2019 @11:48AM (#20615077)
Good, I'd like to buy property in the next 3-5 years, along with a bunch of other people who have been priced out due to cheap money.

Asset valuations are not in line with reality.

Re:China lets yuan break 7-per-dollar level for first time i... by Supermancho on Monday August 05, 2019 @12:45PM (#20615609)
The luxury market in Seattle (Bellevue) crumbled after the Chinese foreign asset taxes went into place. Empty homes that were Chinese owned, are still largely Chinese owned, but suffering from deflation of market value. Home construction plans have slowed or stopped and luxury vehicle, jewelry, etc stores have folded up.
Re:China lets yuan break 7-per-dollar level for first time i... by wtdata on Monday August 05, 2019 @09:41AM (#20614092)
China has an autocratic regimen, it's difficult to gather what the population there truly thinks about US trade tariffs, when they all pretend they never even heard about Tianamen.
Re:China lets yuan break 7-per-dollar level for first time i... by SkyMarshal on Monday August 05, 2019 @01:30PM (#20616135)
Not all of them pretend, many actually haven't heard about it. I know at least one older Chinese adult who came to the US for the first time recently and saw the videos on Youtube for the first time in her life. It was 30yrs ago has been pretty well suppressed by the censors.
Re:China lets yuan break 7-per-dollar level for first time i... by duxup on Monday August 05, 2019 @09:44AM (#20614114)
>when they all pretend they never even heard about Tianamen

The usual reaction I've seen when it is acknowledged (even if generally) is to note that it is "unhelpful" to talk about it.

Re:China lets yuan break 7-per-dollar level for first time i... by AnimalMuppet on Monday August 05, 2019 @01:08PM (#20615848)
In particular, it doesn't help the one doing the talking.