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Re:The Invention of Money by throw0101a on Tuesday July 30, 2019 @06:59AM (#20563669)
> ... is missing the word 'usury' which was largely agreed to be evil by early religions and societies that experienced its effects...

It should be noted that the reasons we borrow money today is different than why it was done in the past.

In the past, the "average" person was usually a farmer, and if they needed to borrow money, it was probably because their crops had failed and they needed to money to buy food to feed themselves. It was unseemly to lend money to someone who, without it, would die.

Borrowing money nowadays is usually for mortgages and consumer spending. Very different situations, with different moral contexts.

Of course some people do still need money to survive, which is where payday loans tend to come in, and I think a lot of people find them distasteful--and the fact that people in our society may need to use them also a sad reflection on our society.

So "usury" was/is considered morally wrong not because of the charging of interest, but of the moral context under which it used to be done. There are of course 'usury laws', but they reflect the idea that charging more than x% interest unseemly because there should be no need for it (to produce a reasonable ROI).

Re:The Invention of Money by panarky on Tuesday July 30, 2019 @09:08AM (#20564444)
> It was unseemly to lend money to someone who, without it, would die.

"Medical debt is a uniquely American phenomenon, a burden that would be unfathomable in many other developed countries."

"Nearly 60 percent of people who have filed for bankruptcy said a medical expense 'very much' or 'somewhat' contributed to their bankruptcy."

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2019/03/hospital-...

Re:The Invention of Money by malandrew on Tuesday July 30, 2019 @07:58PM (#20570462)
If the procedure I need costs more than $1 million such as CAR T-Cell therapy, should others be forced to lend or give me that money even if I have no hope of being able to pay it back?
Re:The Invention of Money by panarky on Wednesday July 31, 2019 @02:08PM (#20576755)
That's what insurance does.

Some events are extremely rare and extremely expensive. We shouldn't expect every individual to have enough savings to pay for every eventuality.

Sharing that risk allows nearly everyone to live better.

The question here is whether that insurance should be provided by a profit-making corporation or a government agency.

Though the US system of private insurance is badly broken, evidence from other countries shows that both approaches can work.

Re:The Invention of Money by objectivetruth on Tuesday July 30, 2019 @08:28PM (#20570633)
Yeah, interesting question. But in the US, the problem right now is 26-year-old diabetics kicked off ACA plans who have to ration insulin (a drug invented a century ago, given royalty-free to the world by the inventors). Sometimes the rationing fails and they die.

So the question should be - can we as a society afford decent late 20th-Century-standard care to every person? The answer is yes, we can, but we don't.

Re:The Invention of Money by kortilla on Tuesday July 30, 2019 @01:43PM (#20567230)
The fact that bankruptcy is even possible is completely different still from the usury of 500 years ago.
Re:The Invention of Money by throw0101a on Tuesday July 30, 2019 @10:29AM (#20565117)
I live in Canada.
Re:The Invention of Money by panarky on Tuesday July 30, 2019 @01:42PM (#20567209)
Congratulations, I'm happy for you!

Not sure that changes the relevance of the usury discussion, even if you personally are insulated from medical bankruptcy.

Re:The Invention of Money by heymijo on Tuesday July 30, 2019 @09:16AM (#20564511)
I was curious about the markets you described--mortgage and payday. You're right about mortgages being a huge market($10.3 trillion in mortgage debt). [0]

Payday loans:

> In fact, U.S. consumers borrow almost $90 billion every year in short-term, small-dollar loans that typically range from $300 to $5,000, according to a 2018 report from the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency (OCC). [1]

> “Right now, 80 percent of payday loans are taken out within two weeks of a previous payday loan.” [1]

Much smaller by comparison, but yeah, the moral context is still there and it's egregious.

[0] https://www.magnifymoney.com/blog/mortgage/u-s-mortgage-mark...

[1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-02-14/expensive...

Re:The Invention of Money by wazoox on Tuesday July 30, 2019 @09:43AM (#20564751)
Such usury loans are absolutely illegal in civilised countries, for instance [almost] everywhere in Europe. Just saying.

(edit: not in the UK, which is rapidly sailing away).

Re:The Invention of Money by vageli on Tuesday July 30, 2019 @09:56AM (#20564864)
> Such usury loans are absolutely illegal in civilised countries, for instance everywhere in Europe. Just saying.

This is proved untrue with minimal searching online. Here's one example: https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/just-when-you-thought-...

Also search "payday loan $EU_COUNTRY" to see some pretty insane rates (>1000%).

Re:The Invention of Money by testvox on Tuesday July 30, 2019 @10:38AM (#20565189)
Where is it illegal in Europe?
Re:The Invention of Money by tschwimmer on Tuesday July 30, 2019 @01:17PM (#20566928)
This is in my opinion not accurate. Farmers borrowed money then for the same reason they do now: to smooth cashflows. Farming is an inherently lumpy business from a cashflow perspective. You plant your seeds and incur a bunch of costs now, and only months later can you harvest and sell them.

So yes, it was 'unfair' to farmers to charge interest because it's pretty much required, but also farmers had a vested business interest in getting money lent for low interest rates.