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Re:Europe embraces rent controls, a policy that never works by PaulHoule on Friday July 26, 2019 @07:55PM (#20539329)
It seems rent control is popular in many places.

I read recently that people in California think that rent control is a better solution to the housing crisis than building more housing by a large margin.

It startles me a little because if there is one thing all economists agree on (even the Richard K. Galbraith and Paul Krguman kind of economists) it is that rent control is a bad policy.

Re:Europe embraces rent controls, a policy that never works by hn_throwaway_99 on Friday July 26, 2019 @08:20PM (#20539480)
TBH, I'm very surprised (disheartened?) that your comment has been downvoted. Your last sentence is very true - economists on the most "conservative" and "liberal" sides of the profession all agree that rent control is counter productive.

You know where housing is still pretty affordable and you can make a decent living even if you're poor? Houston, which famously doesn't have zoning. Granted, this can cause lots of other problems (many attribute a lot of the flood damage caused by Hurricane Harvey to overbuilding), but it seems very clear that if you want to have affordable housing, you have to build an f-ton of housing, and Houston has done that, while all of these over-regulated housing-crisis cities clearly have not.

Re:Europe embraces rent controls, a policy that never works by qarlow on Friday July 26, 2019 @10:08PM (#20539941)
> Your last sentence is very true - economists on the most "conservative" and "liberal" sides of the profession all agree that rent control is counter productive.

No, I wouldn't say it is true. The things is most people on hacker news would agree that it is so because you have read it so many times before. But they can't actually specify what that actually is because that isn't really known. All that economists really agree on is rent control is unsurprisingly a worse way to allocate resources based on money. But that says little to nothing about the political and social costs which makes the economic discussion largely irrelevant. If rent control decreases market efficiency by 5%, but increases political efficiency orders of magnitude because people no longer fear that building more will force them to move, it is a worthy trade off. Similarly to achieve affordable housing without rent control in an already hot market requires the government to implement changes to the direct detriment of landlords and land owners, which usually isn't popular.

Economics isn't a field like others. It is very overtly political. Unless you know exactly what they can and can't prove, and to what degree they can prove it, it might not be relevant. Which isn't something you will actually find most of the time, because it often isn't.

Re:Europe embraces rent controls, a policy that never works by otterley on Friday July 26, 2019 @08:16PM (#20539445)
It's a well-known observation among behaviorists and economists that people usually act based on their selfish interests, as opposed to the best interests of society. If you stand to benefit personally from rent control, you're much more likely to be in favor of it, regardless of its negative net consequences. This is especially true if you're not impacted by those negative consequences.

A recent turning point is that the number of adult renters in major U.S. population centers is beginning to exceed the number of homeowners. As they age, they begin to participate more in the political process (despite the voting age being 18) and carry more clout. You end up with two major blocs of political power: (1) city council members vested in the status quo who want to strictly regulate new housing to preserve "neighborhood character" (i.e., property values); and (2) renters demanding rent control.

Strange bedfellows they may seem, but the two kind of go hand in hand in the sense that they've already got a sweet deal and want to protect it.

Re:Europe embraces rent controls, a policy that never works by nhumrich on Friday July 26, 2019 @08:26PM (#20539525)
I think you just summed up politics for me, and why it seems more divided than it should be.
Re:Europe embraces rent controls, a policy that never works by tj-teej on Friday July 26, 2019 @08:09PM (#20539398)
Why is it rent-control OR building new apartments?

Houses don't appear immediately and isn't it a good idea to keep people in their homes while the supply grows (building new houses) and the economy stabilizes?

Re:Europe embraces rent controls, a policy that never works by aeternus on Friday July 26, 2019 @08:10PM (#20539413)
No, because rent-control disincentives new development.
Re:Europe embraces rent controls, a policy that never works by cj on Friday July 26, 2019 @08:13PM (#20539430)
How so? Many rent control policies exclude new development from rent control.
Re:Europe embraces rent controls, a policy that never works by krapht on Friday July 26, 2019 @08:19PM (#20539470)
If I buy a property to rent out, the net present value to me is lessened due to rent control.

If (x = net present value) < (y = cost to develop) then I don't build.

Re:Europe embraces rent controls, a policy that never works by refurb on Friday July 26, 2019 @08:45PM (#20539631)
It drives prices higher making building new building less profitable.

And more importantly, disincentivizes maintenance and upgrades to older buildings.

Re:Europe embraces rent controls, a policy that never works by otterley on Friday July 26, 2019 @08:17PM (#20539455)
> isn't it a good idea to keep people in their homes while the supply grows

Maybe, maybe not. It seems like a foregone conclusion among many people, but isn't backed by evidence or data.

Re:Europe embraces rent controls, a policy that never works by pizza on Friday July 26, 2019 @08:01PM (#20539361)
Why is it so hard to build in California, anyway? And why is it so hard to change the reason it is hard to build?
Re:Europe embraces rent controls, a policy that never works by et-al on Friday July 26, 2019 @08:09PM (#20539401)
California housing discussions are common here. Plenty has been said about it in yesterday's Approaching Peak Housing Dysfunction in California thread:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20527867

If you want a simple answer, carapace's comment stood out to me:

- - -

It's because we're hella young out here. Relative to the East Coast anyway (I mean, London has Roman ruins...) Do an image search for old timey SF and you'll see: the Sunset was sand dunes until about last Tuesday, etc. Dudes used to pan for gold out by Lake Merced.

Also, this was the weirdo town. Bohemia on the Bay. Serious folk didn't really come here to be serious and sane. The old line was, "All the crazy people move to California, and all the crazy people in California move to San Francisco." To which residents add, "And all the people too crazy for San Francisco move to Berkeley."

So yeah, you've got a young town full of nuts and flakes that no one really paid much attention to until the last ~50 years or so, whadda ya expect, eh?

- - -

Before Web 2.0, only the weird Ivy League graduates would consider moving out to the Bay Area. Now the secret's out and everyone wants to move here.

Re:Europe embraces rent controls, a policy that never works by StavrosK on Friday July 26, 2019 @08:13PM (#20539423)
> I mean, London has Roman ruins...

Wait until you hear what Rome has!

Re:Europe embraces rent controls, a policy that never works by icelancer on Friday July 26, 2019 @08:03PM (#20539374)
NIMBYism, and NIMBYism, respectively.
Re:Europe embraces rent controls, a policy that never works by mrep on Friday July 26, 2019 @08:33PM (#20539567)
Simple, Americans want large single family homes and california cities cannot sprawl in all directions due to water and mountains.
Re:Europe embraces rent controls, a policy that never works by harimau777 on Friday July 26, 2019 @08:11PM (#20539415)
I personally think that a lot of it is because, other than preventing all development there is no way to insure that the building next to your house won't be some soulless, concrete eyesore or something else that lowers property value.

I'd like to see less efforts to demonize NIMBYism and more efforts to eliminate the factors that make NIMBYism necessary.

Re:Europe embraces rent controls, a policy that never works by icelancer on Friday July 26, 2019 @08:18PM (#20539462)
>> I personally think that a lot of it is because, other than preventing all development there is no way to insure that the building next to your house won't be some soulless, concrete eyesore or something else that lowers property value.

This is the definition of NIMBYism.

Re:Europe embraces rent controls, a policy that never works by User23 on Friday July 26, 2019 @08:04PM (#20539379)
Primus, the people with the 20 million dollar Malibu mansions don't want their view spoiled by a 20 story affordable housing tower. So they use ecological impact studies and similar tools to enforce an impenetrable NIMBY shield.

Secondus, the people with the 20 million dollar Malibu mansions are the ones who pay for the politicians' campaigns.

Re:Europe embraces rent controls, a policy that never works by localcrisis on Friday July 26, 2019 @08:11PM (#20539414)
my dude why're you talking in latin this ain't pompeii
Re:Europe embraces rent controls, a policy that never works by User23 on Friday July 26, 2019 @08:03PM (#20539372)
This is because economists are shills that collect their paychecks from the rentier class or their cronies. People that actually understand markets and business don't work as economists, they are too busy getting rich by trading or creating.

Unearned income is obviously a net economic drag. I'm not saying there shouldn't be any, I want to retire some day too. In fact in German the word for retiree is "rentner." The problem comes when there is a permanent rentier class that simply extracts rents from the working economy. They are parasites. Most of the valid criticisms of capitalism are actually just criticisms of excessive rent-seeking. And that can exist under any economic system.

Re:Europe embraces rent controls, a policy that never works by standardUser on Friday July 26, 2019 @07:58PM (#20539346)
If you take the worst version of a policy then it is very easy to criticize and get a consensus. That doesn't mean it's not possible to have a rent stabilization policy that can both enhance housing stability without dramatically distorting the market.
Re:Europe embraces rent controls, a policy that never works by malandrew on Friday July 26, 2019 @08:02PM (#20539365)
Can you cite an example of a rent stabilization policy that doesn't dramatically distort the market?