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Re:What If Consciousness Comes First? by sdfin on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @06:37PM (#20520722)
Intentions are deterministic and your discomfort about the topic is deterministic too. Are you aware of the cause of that discomfort?

This reminds me of Sam Harris' book "Freewill", I recommend it to the people who believe in freewill.

By the way, what determines the whole chain of deterministic events?

Re:What If Consciousness Comes First? by wool_gather on Thursday July 25, 2019 @10:58AM (#20525927)
I recommend Dennett's review of Harris's book to people who recommend it: https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/13814

Also Elbow Room, or, better, Freedom Evolves.

Re:What If Consciousness Comes First? by sdfin on Thursday July 25, 2019 @06:11PM (#20530304)
Thanks, I like to see the other side when I believe something.

I once read Dennett's critiques and I remember I didn't find them very convincing. But right now I don't remember his arguments. I won't analyze them right now as to be able to comment in this topic. If you mention Dennett's main argument against what Harris says about freewill I'd thank you.

Marvin Minsky said we are 'meat machines'. What does Dennet say against that? (considering machines as deterministic).

Re:What If Consciousness Comes First? by wool_gather on Thursday July 25, 2019 @08:58PM (#20531374)
Dennett's overall claim is that incompatiblists are making a category error when they say that determinism at the physical level precludes free will at the level of subjective experience. He argues that free will, and really any kind of freedom at all, emerges from the layers upon layers upon layers that make up the existence of what we call a living creature. (And that there are layers, or degrees, of freedom.)

I'm afraid I don't remember the exact contents of the Harris/Dennett debate; I should probably reread it myself. :)

Re:What If Consciousness Comes First? by sdfin on Thursday July 25, 2019 @09:40PM (#20531624)
Thanks for the summary.

any kind of freedom at all, emerges from the layers upon layers upon layers that make up the existence of what we call a living creature.

I don't see why layers upon layers would imply freedom. A complex Java web framework may have layers upon layers of abstractions, and that may make its operation hard to understand fully. But that doesn't mean it isn't deterministic.

Spinoza wrote: Men are mistaken in thinking themselves free; their opinion is made up of consciousness of their own actions, and ignorance of the causes by which they are determined.

Re:What If Consciousness Comes First? by ErikCorry on Thursday July 25, 2019 @04:10PM (#20529072)
Great link.