News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:How I tried to compete with YouTube and Google with Livev... by noobermin on Thursday July 18, 2019 @04:11PM (#20473498)
Nothing you said is wrong, but that is part of the problem right? To do anything online, you have to use google to some extent, so how can you compete in the first place? Google is already a monopoly in search which makes it impossible to make something online that requires search (ie., almost everything) and have it properly compete.
Re:How I tried to compete with YouTube and Google with Livev... by bduerst on Thursday July 18, 2019 @05:27PM (#20474078)
Not quite.

First, Google isn't a monopoly on search. Popular? yes. Best product? For most use cases, yeah. The fact that the search competition is a click away makes it dominant in the market but not a monopoly or monopsony.

Second, companies are doing fine in this regard by bypassing Google. There are online businesses that exist solely on Amazon and Instagram. Building out a strong social presence is one way to get traffic without relying on Google search. Several major content hosting sites (images/gifs) have taken off in part because of their social saturation.

Is it easy? No, but to GP's point it doesn't sound like they were being strategic in this regard either.

Re:How I tried to compete with YouTube and Google with Livev... by noobermin on Thursday July 18, 2019 @07:10PM (#20474873)
I should rephrase my argument. What I really meant to highlight is you cannot have a business online that google does not approve of without great difficulty, given to be online you must use google in some extent. That is a problem and decidedly anti-competitive.

Also I don't care too much about the OP's attitude or lack of strategy, actors don't have to be paragons of virtue in order to be wronged and their situation be an example of a larger problem.

Also, finally, why do you need to dispute the basic facts, no one in their right mind thinks Google isn't a monopoly on search, I think that is more or less an established fact at this point.

Re:How I tried to compete with YouTube and Google with Livev... by root_axis on Thursday July 18, 2019 @07:32PM (#20475008)
> What I really meant to highlight is you cannot have a business online that google does not approve of without great difficulty

I disagree. I have worked at several companies with very successful sales and marketing departments where referrals from google were a noticeable but ultimately unimportant part of the revenue picture. I have also worked at a place that literally lived and died by the grace of a top ranking on google, once we hit the 2nd and then 3rd page, the business was basically dead. This sucked, but it was very nice for the company that replaced us. There is no inherent reason why one company should be entitled to the slot any more than any other (besides the google algorithm that determines ranking).

Re:How I tried to compete with YouTube and Google with Livev... by mrep on Thursday July 18, 2019 @07:37PM (#20475031)
> no one in their right mind thinks Google isn't a monopoly on search, I think that is more or less an established fact at this point.

"A monopoly exists when a specific person or enterprise is the only supplier of a particular commodity" [0]. Bing exists so by definition, you are wrong.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly

Re:How I tried to compete with YouTube and Google with Livev... by belorn on Friday July 19, 2019 @04:06AM (#20476948)
If you have a problem with people using the word monopoly as synonymous with anti-trust then just interpret it as anti-trust and ignore the word.

For example, Article 102 of the Treaty on the Functioning:

Any abuse by one or more undertakings of a dominant position within the internal market or in a substantial part of it shall be prohibited as incompatible with the internal market in so far as it may affect trade between Member States. Such abuse may, in particular, consist in: (a) directly or indirectly imposing unfair purchase or selling prices or other unfair trading conditions; (b) limiting production, markets or technical development to the prejudice of consumers;

With Sherman Antitrust Act of 1890 we get supreme court cases that states things like: The purpose of the [Sherman] Act is not to protect businesses from the working of the market; it is to protect the public from the failure of the market. The law directs itself not against conduct which is competitive, even severely so, but against conduct which unfairly tends to destroy competition itself.

And in an other supreme court case:

The goal was to prevent restraints of free competition in business and commercial transactions which tended to restrict production, raise prices, or otherwise control the market to the detriment of purchasers or consumers of goods and services, all of which had come to be regarded as a special form of public injury. For that reason the phrase "restraint of trade," which, as will presently appear, had a well understood meaning in common law, was made the means of defining the activities prohibited.

Not a word about monopoly but a lot about behavior which in common speech people call monopoly but actually refer to behavior which is illegal according to anti-trust.

Re:How I tried to compete with YouTube and Google with Livev... by bduerst on Friday July 19, 2019 @02:25PM (#20481196)
Even so, by the definitions you're copying, Google's competition is still a click away for consumers.

Whether you use anti-trust synonymously with the word monopoly doesn't change the fact that Google will still show Bing and Yandex in the search results.

An example of anti-competitive behavior here is actually from Amazon, when they had de-listed Apple TV and Chromecast from their marketplace for years because it competed with their Fire Stick.

Re:How I tried to compete with YouTube and Google with Livev... by mrep on Friday July 19, 2019 @04:15PM (#20482067)
> If you have a problem with people using the word monopoly as synonymous with anti-trust then just interpret it as anti-trust and ignore the word.

Are you suggesting that we should ignore people misusing economic terms when discussing economic policy? I don't see how ignoring blatantly false facts is better than educating people such that they can properly discuss a topic using the proper terms.

Re:How I tried to compete with YouTube and Google with Livev... by Faark on Thursday July 18, 2019 @08:13PM (#20475198)
There is probably choice from an end-user's point of view, yes. On that front you are arguing about best search results.

But as site owner, you need traffic. SEO for some search engine built by your brother, used exclusively by your family, wont help you grow your business. You need eyeballs, and more than 90% of those are on google [0]. Pretending this is a perfectly functioning market and websites can just ignore google is... unrealistic.

[0] http://gs.statcounter.com/search-engine-market-share

Re:How I tried to compete with YouTube and Google with Livev... by mrep on Thursday July 18, 2019 @10:14PM (#20475688)
It's definitely not a perfectly competitive market but this trope about GAFAM being monopolies is tiring. A monopoly can stagnate development on their product, raise prices and there's nothing customers can do because they have literally no other option. That is why monopolies are bad.

If Google were to try and charge users for search, everyone would immediately switch to bing which keeps them in check from raising prices like they would if they were the only provider of search. They are in no way a monopoly.

Re:How I tried to compete with YouTube and Google with Livev... by Marsymars on Friday July 19, 2019 @01:30AM (#20476388)
The pedantry around the term "monopoly" is also a bit tiring.

If you substitute "harmfully disproportionate market power" for "monopoly", the points most people are making remain similar.

Re:How I tried to compete with YouTube and Google with Livev... by mrep on Friday July 19, 2019 @04:11PM (#20482030)
Are you suggesting that we should ignore people misusing economic terms when discussing economic policy? I don't see how ignoring blatantly false facts is better than educating people such that they can properly discuss a topic using the proper terms.
Re:How I tried to compete with YouTube and Google with Livev... by Faark on Sunday July 21, 2019 @09:53AM (#20491314)
For a proper exchange of ideas to function, the listening side has to try it's best to interpret the message as intended. Yes, to a degree does that include ignoring misuse of language. That obviously doesn't mean you can never give any feedback.

> educating people such that they can properly discuss a topic using the proper terms

Where did you do that? The only recommendation for a better term I see is "harmfully disproportionate market power", still quite a usable mouthful and made by someone else. Your contribution seems to boil down to "your wrong", and I'm still unsure if this is intended to be about the use of the word or the actual point. Probably both, with one being secretly used to support the other.

Re:How I tried to compete with YouTube and Google with Livev... by codegladiator on Friday July 19, 2019 @04:38AM (#20477072)
Not if the "charge for search" is actually paid by the website. Google is indirectly charging the users

Google -> search results (for free) -> website (owner paid for seo/adwords and charge the customer)

Similar thing happened with google maps while they were never a monopoly by your definition because other solutions exist.

Re:How I tried to compete with YouTube and Google with Livev... by Shaanie on Friday July 19, 2019 @03:34AM (#20476846)
His point is that Google isn't a monopoly from the user side. What if Google started offering the ability for websites to pay to increase their pagerank?
Re:How I tried to compete with YouTube and Google with Livev... by dageshi on Thursday July 18, 2019 @04:42PM (#20473741)
Pornhub probably could. They've got the tech, the traffic, the money, the advertising infrastructure, they've got everything they need to launch a youtube competitor because the big tech companies don't really touch porn.
Re:How I tried to compete with YouTube and Google with Livev... by darkpuma on Thursday July 18, 2019 @04:46PM (#20473770)
> "the big tech companies don't really touch porn."

Isn't that the case because mainstream American advertisers don't want anything to do with it? I don't think it's a matter of west coast tech companies being prudes, but rather tech companies appeasing big consumer goods companies that spend billions on advertising, like P&G, J&J, PepsiCo, etc. And those companies are in turn likely appeasing 'middle america' by trying to keep their brands as bland and "family friendly" as possible.

Edit: (And now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure Amazon sells pornography, so that's one of the big tech companies at least that is willing to. And I don't think it's a coincidence that advertising from those big consumer goods companies isn't nearly as important to Amazon... Then again Amazon doesn't allow nudity on twitch, which perhaps could be considered roughly analogous to Google's similar ban of pornography on youtube. Perhaps twitch, as a consumer brand, is subject to the same social pressures from the American public as PepsiCo?)

Re:How I tried to compete with YouTube and Google with Livev... by izzydata on Thursday July 18, 2019 @05:33PM (#20474125)
Anyone else find it mildly strange how such a huge portion of the economy functions solely on the production and consumption of terrible products such as soda?
Re:How I tried to compete with YouTube and Google with Livev... by darkpuma on Thursday July 18, 2019 @07:32PM (#20475005)
Sugar and caffeine, it's addictive twice over.

Although that also describes another beverage, coffee. The difference between the coffee and soft drink industries is interesting though. Two massive corporations dominate almost the entire soft drink industry, with a handful of minor providers (notably Keurig Dr Pepper) and a long tail of much smaller 'boutique', novelty, or regional brands. Comparatively, no coffee company controls as much of the industry as either the Coca Cola Company or PepsiCo do.

(Also, PepsiCo in particular owns a ton of other non-beverage brands. Their subsidiary Frito-Lay produces the brands Lay's, Cheetos, Doritos, etc. PepsiCo is huge for American consumers. To your point though, snack food isn't much better than sugar water.)

Re:How I tried to compete with YouTube and Google with Livev... by TeMPOraL on Thursday July 18, 2019 @06:05PM (#20474381)
I'm more worried about the huge supporting portion of the economy that is advertising. Seems to have much more harmful effects on everything around us, including but not limited to making people consume more terrible products such as soda than they otherwise would.
Re:How I tried to compete with YouTube and Google with Livev... by sneak on Thursday July 18, 2019 @10:55PM (#20475841)
Pop isn’t a terrible product. The issue, like anything, is overuse.

You can make the same argument for anything, from butter to guns to video games to literally anything that plugs into the wall and consumes electricity.

Use anything beyond reason and it becomes destructive.

Re:How I tried to compete with YouTube and Google with Livev... by jfim on Thursday July 18, 2019 @06:35PM (#20474609)
Amazon does sell porn, but it's excluded from recommendations and casual browsing I believe. If you search by keyword you'll get results.
Re:How I tried to compete with YouTube and Google with Livev... by sneak on Thursday July 18, 2019 @10:53PM (#20475830)
> And now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure Amazon sells pornography, so that's one of the big tech companies at least that is willing to.

Amazon also runs an entirely separate and special cloud staffed only by US citizens to assist the military in running software that decides who to detain, torture, and possibly murder, so it is unsurprising that they have no corresponding aversion to media depicting less violent interactions.

Re:How I tried to compete with YouTube and Google with Livev... by defen on Thursday July 18, 2019 @04:19PM (#20473560)
Hey, if you want to compete with Standard Oil just build your own railroad line.
Re:How I tried to compete with YouTube and Google with Livev... by HeWhoLurksLate on Thursday July 18, 2019 @06:29PM (#20474559)
Until Standard Oil builds pipelines.

That literally happened.

Re:How I tried to compete with YouTube and Google with Livev... by darkpuma on Thursday July 18, 2019 @04:20PM (#20473568)
Exactly. You may as well try to compete with a railroad monopoly while at the same time not using any of their existing rail infrastructure. Good fucking luck.