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Re:Fighting climate change may be cheaper and more beneficia... by nabla9 on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @08:12AM (#20401179)
There would be cost to ordinary people in developed countries as well. The rapid change needed will probably reduce living standards for a generation with several percentages.

Overall there may be net positive effects for all generations, never in the history of the humanity have masses sacrificed for the whole of the humanity.

Re:Fighting climate change may be cheaper and more beneficia... by bryanlarsen on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @08:53AM (#20401464)
No sacrifice should be required. Let's suppose that we adopt a carbon tax with dividend, along with a carbon tariff.

Estimates for the externalities caused by carbon emissions vary widely, but a median estimate is around $100 / metric tonne, so we'll pick that. Gas prices double. Beef, cement and the usual suspects go up in price substantially, although likely gas is the only thing that doubles. Every family gets a cheque in the mail every month for a few hundred dollars (the dividend).

The carbon tariff means that imports from non-cooperating nations go up in price substantially, but imports from nations that have their own carbon taxes or equivalent are not impacted.

What dramatic sacrifices have you made? Normal families will be able to pay their share of the carbon tax with the dividend.

Re:Fighting climate change may be cheaper and more beneficia... by nabla9 on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @09:16AM (#20401625)
Carbon $100/ton tax+ariff would be incredibly great but,...

Carbon tax would not be Pareto optimal. nobody is claiming it is are as far as I know and there is no reason to assume it is. Some people would lose big.

Large scale disruptions and frictions when economy adapts. Value of various investments will sink when taxation changes. People lose their jobs, some can't find new jobs with similar wage or with less wages. Even house prices will drop outside accessible public transport. Demand for electric cars would increase their price. For example tourism would suffer dramatically when people stop flying.

People in poor countries would suffer the most because their economies are very CO2 intensive.

Re:Fighting climate change may be cheaper and more beneficia... by bryanlarsen on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @09:27AM (#20401714)
I claim that carbon tax is closer to pareto optimal then no carbon tax, since without a carbon tax the externalities are not accounted for.

Sure there would be losers, but there would also be winners. You claimed "reduce living standards for a generation with several percentages", I claim there would be a balance between losers & winners and the economic impact would be minimal.

The dividend goes a long way to ensuring that the losers are concentrated among the rich and the average poor person benefits.

Re:Fighting climate change may be cheaper and more beneficia... by skosch on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @10:36AM (#20402362)
You can look at the issue however you want, but at the end of the day somebody is going to have to pay for the renewable energy and carbon sequestration tech.

We can fund them with taxpayer money, which means the average Joe pays, and politicians pick winning (or losing) technologies.

Or we can make the polluters fund them, and let the invisible hand pick the best technologies.

I find the second option much more attractive. And Nobel-prize winning economists agree: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/08/business/economic-science...

Re:Fighting climate change may be cheaper and more beneficia... by nabla9 on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @12:26PM (#20403488)
I repeatedly agree that carbon tax+tariff would be incredibly great. Somehow the point of what I'm saying is not getting trough and people assume that I argue against tariffs.

In a polarized world looking both good and bad sides of generally good thing is seen as being against.

My point is that if we want to make a real change, we can't realistically expect to fix all negative side effects that even the best solution has. If the overall solution becomes politically possible, we must hammer it trough even if we must throw many good people under the bus.

Re:Fighting climate change may be cheaper and more beneficia... by mises on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @08:37AM (#20401351)
This is why people are not going along with the far-left proposals. I personally will not reduce my living standard for the sake of some "green dream". How about we wait for a generation and invent the requisite technology? Then, it will be more cost-effective and will out-compete the old stuff.
Re:Fighting climate change may be cheaper and more beneficia... by hanniabu on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @09:53AM (#20401930)
> I personally will not reduce my living standard for the sake of some "green dream".

(1) It's not a dream, it's the physical world around you. If you like the way it is then action needs to be taken now.

(2) If you will not not willingly reduce your standard of living for a green world, then you will forcibly have your standard of living reduced by a shittier planet. Massive specie die-offs, expensive food, droughts, more frequent bad weather, heat and violence that comes with hotter temperatures, countries panicking and fighting for resources, people panicking and fighting for resources, etc.

Re:Fighting climate change may be cheaper and more beneficia... by makerofspoons on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @09:28AM (#20401722)
We don't have that kind of time. James Anderson, a leading atmospheric scientist who is famous for his research on ozone depletion by CFCs, says we have as little as five years: https://www.sciencetimes.com/articles/23104/20190703/only-5-...
Re:Fighting climate change may be cheaper and more beneficia... by egil on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @08:56AM (#20401485)
We still need an incentive to invent today to gain the necessary technology for tomorrow.
Re:Fighting climate change may be cheaper and more beneficia... by nabla9 on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @09:39AM (#20401818)
We don't have time to wait.