News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Fighting climate change may be cheaper and more beneficia... by KaiserPro on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @07:26AM (#20400905)
This is not universal.

Yes, the expansion of agricultural land is almost always bad. Unless its expansion into desert, and isn't depleting water (which is almost never the case).

But, sheep, cattle and especially pigs provide useful products in the farming cycle, essential if you want to cut out oil based fertilisers.

Thats not to mention that most of the country side of Europe looks the way it does because if farming sheep or cattle.

Pasture has its own biodiversity. Simply stopping all animal consumption would leave us more dependent on fertilisers in the short to medium term. It would also cause rapid local environmental changes, that would have interesting side effects.

Re:Fighting climate change may be cheaper and more beneficia... by gdubs on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @10:27AM (#20402240)
We don’t need ruminants to go away, we just need carbon to be fairly priced so that if factors in the negative externalities that are currently ignored. This will make beef a luxury purchase, which will drive down the level of consumption.

Some of that cost could be offset by incentivizing carbon capturing farming practices like silvopasture and agroforestry. But while healthy pastures can sequester a lot of carbon, it’s nowhere near the numbers of a healthy forest. Ultimately we need to reforest a lot of land, which will reduce the grazing carrying load of the planet, and again make beef more expensive.

I get it: beef is easy, and people love it. So are fossil fuels. You can make a strong argument that both have done a lot of good in bringing the world out of poverty. But, where things stand today, it’s unsustainable.

People tend to focus just on the methane emissions of cows, but that’s probably somewhat solvable with changes to their diets — adding seaweed, etc. The real carbon cost is in land use change, chemical fertilizer production, transport, etc. The majority of our food system is set up to produce feed for animals. And the EPA numbers for agricultural emissions only focus on direct emissions from things like tilling, or gas burned by tractors. The true carbon cost of farming is likely to be much, much bigger than conventional estimates suggest.

There seems to be a fear that a mostly vegetarian / vegan diet is somehow less healthy. I’d argue that there’s plenty of contemporary science on the subject to suggest that it’s just as healthy a way to live, and perhaps even more so. But even if it’s a tossup, there’s an undeniable fact: global warming is happening, and the health effects of that greatly outweigh the health effects that can probably be solved with a couple of supplements. (Anecdotal evidence, but my kids are vegan due to allergies, and they’re thriving. It’s never been easier to be vegan. My parents were for a time when I was a kid, and let me tell you, things have come a long way.)

Re:Fighting climate change may be cheaper and more beneficia... by Vinnl on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @07:45AM (#20401001)
Luckily there's no risk at all of us suddenly stopping all animal consumption from one day to another. Just getting everybody to eat just a little less meat is already almost too much of a challenge. (This might partly be due to discussions often devolving into these grandiose-but-unlikely visions of a sudden animal-free society.)
Re:Fighting climate change may be cheaper and more beneficia... by hvidgaard on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @07:59AM (#20401089)
That is a very bold claim. If we ignore everything else, then growing and getting enough nutritious plant based food out to everyone would be impossible without years of planning and changing. We cannot grow that much varied crop at the moment and we don't have facilities to process it.

We are on the right track with getting people to switch red with white meat, a single weekly day without meat, ect. But it is with all likelihood not something that we can do over the next decade. It's something we instill in the younger generations and as they grow up it will happen.

Re:Fighting climate change may be cheaper and more beneficia... by Vinnl on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @08:10AM (#20401159)
I think we're saying the same thing? We're not going to be able to switch everyone to plant-based food without years of planning of changing, so there's no need to worry about that happening - and it's potentially distracting from the thing we hopefully can manage, i.e. instilling in younger generations to eat less meat.
Re:Fighting climate change may be cheaper and more beneficia... by hvidgaard on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @08:29AM (#20401286)
I must be misunderstanding it. I was reading it as a claim that we can switch at the snap of fingers without any risk or issue at all. Apologies if that was not correct.
Re:Fighting climate change may be cheaper and more beneficia... by Vinnl on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @08:44AM (#20401402)
That was indeed not what I was trying to say; I was trying to say we cannot switch at the snap of our fingers at all, so since we're not going to do that, whatever risk might be associated with that is not relevant to this discussion. Apologies for not clearly communicating :)
Re:Fighting climate change may be cheaper and more beneficia... by Ensorceled on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @07:39AM (#20400967)
This reminds me of all the small dairy farms that used to exist where I grew up. My grandfathers' farm was pretty typical at 100 acres; 40 acres of rough pasture and wood lot ("the back 40"), almost 60 acres of fields that rotated as hay/grain and temporary pasture. Everything self-contained and fertilized with cow manure until the '70s when everything started ratcheting up.
Re:Fighting climate change may be cheaper and more beneficia... by hvidgaard on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @08:01AM (#20401110)
At some point the land would be useless, unless biomass from the outside was added. Every product that leaves the farm is from the land and it's ability to support that cycle will be depleted sooner or later.
Re:Fighting climate change may be cheaper and more beneficia... by Ensorceled on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @10:35AM (#20402342)
That's not how biomass works, biomass is not a zero-sum game. The main issue with sustainable dairy farming is secondary elements and nitrogen fixing. My grandfathers both planted clover in rotation for this reason.

Eventually, the ground will become depleted of phosphorous and potassium. Other trace elements tend to take a really long time to deplete, especially in clay.

Re:Fighting climate change may be cheaper and more beneficia... by hvidgaard on Thursday July 11, 2019 @04:52AM (#20410094)
That was my point. What we see today in conventional farming is just what your grandfathers did "on steroids". We've become really good at farming, so the depletion happens significantly faster.

For every product that leaves the farm, it takes something from the ground. Some can be amended with legume plants, but minerals will deplete at some point - adding them yearly is responsible farming.

Re:Fighting climate change may be cheaper and more beneficia... by Nasrudith on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @09:38AM (#20401802)
Biomass does come from the outside though on earth - rainfall and photosynthesis are sufficient to increase the mass unless said farm is a closed cycle hermetically sealed dome.

That said it still could run into problems with other requisite elemental depletion in soil even with assistance of things like bacteria. If the plants need calcium and it is all extracted then thr farm would be limited to simpler life that doesn't need any trace elements. If say algae can get by on just atmospheric gas components, water, and sunlight indefinitely then a hypothetical algae farm could run indefinitely. But there isn't much of a market for algae.