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Re:Why Didn’t Denmark Sell Greenland? by elliotec on Friday July 05, 2019 @07:12PM (#20366641)
Agreed. Greenland is 836,300 mi², while Denmark is 16,577 mi². Imagine the effects of climate change in 200+ years - Greenland could be VERY valuable and important then.
Re:Why Didn’t Denmark Sell Greenland? by macspoofing on Friday July 05, 2019 @11:53PM (#20367696)
The issue is that if Greenland was valuable, Denmark wouldn't be able to hold it.
Re:Why Didn’t Denmark Sell Greenland? by Svip on Saturday July 06, 2019 @04:38AM (#20368656)
Denmark itself is a pretty valuable strategic asset. What with controlling the seaways into the Baltic. If Greenland is valuable, then Denmark would likely be guaranteed to own it. In the same way, that Denmark has remained independent.

During the Second Schleswig War in 1864, the King of Denmark offered Otto von Bismarck thrice that Denmark - instead of relinquishing Schleswig - would join the German Confederation - which Bismarck would later turn into the German Empire.

All three times, Bismarck rejected the offer for two primary reasons: 1) He did not believe Danes would join a pan-German state and 2) (more importantly) the other great powers would have a big problem with Denmark being German.

In the same fashion, the fight over Greenland would lead to the compromise solution that Greenland remain none of the great/super powers. The US would never accept it falling into Russian hands, but they could accept Denmark keeping it.

Re:Why Didn’t Denmark Sell Greenland? by ec109685 on Saturday July 06, 2019 @02:00AM (#20368202)
Some country would invade it? That seems unlikely these days…
Re:Why Didn’t Denmark Sell Greenland? by anbop on Saturday July 06, 2019 @02:30AM (#20368296)
Nobody stopped Russia from invading Crimea... I doubt anyone is going to stop them from invading Greenland.
Re:Why Didn’t Denmark Sell Greenland? by hnzix on Saturday July 06, 2019 @02:43AM (#20368329)
Denmark is part of NATO. Very different scenario. Invading Greenland would be declaring war with 29 countries.
Re:Why Didn’t Denmark Sell Greenland? by DuskStar on Saturday July 06, 2019 @02:58AM (#20368374)
That works against non-NATO countries. If the US decided to turn its military basing agreements into ownership, there's not much anyone could really do to stop them. (If I had to do it, I'd follow the general pattern of greatly expanding those bases and the surrounding communities and eventually holding a referendum on whether the island should remain Danish or join the US - a referendum in which all the island's residents could vote, including US military)
Re:Why Didn’t Denmark Sell Greenland? by vijayr02 on Saturday July 06, 2019 @04:48AM (#20368691)
Why would the US do this? They are the incumbents and there's no advantage (and possibly only disadvantage) to owning this territory.

My personal view is that the current geographical extent of the United States is static; there is no political will to change this - and why would you, when you can get all the benefits without the problems?

Re:Why Didn’t Denmark Sell Greenland? by hnzix on Saturday July 06, 2019 @06:21AM (#20368914)
> there's not much anyone could really do to stop them

I would suggest that significant % of the remaining 28 members of NATO (including the nuclear armed Belgium, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, and Turkey) would come up with a few ideas.

Re:Why Didn’t Denmark Sell Greenland? by alexhutcheson on Saturday July 06, 2019 @07:09AM (#20369062)
I don’t think any of those countries have their own nuclear weapons, unless you’re referring to US weapons controlled by US troops in those countries.
Re:Why Didn’t Denmark Sell Greenland? by petronio on Saturday July 06, 2019 @08:17AM (#20369266)
The UK and France are both NATO members and have their own nuclear stockpiles.
Re:Why Didn’t Denmark Sell Greenland? by fit2rule on Saturday July 06, 2019 @06:12AM (#20368887)
How about American citizens consider removing their heinously destabilising military bases from other sovereign states, and instead using those resources to make the lives of their own citizens better?

The world is tired of the USA bully thug politics involved in its placement of military bases around the world, and the arrogance of those who support these imperialist actions is very telling. These bases are not making the world more stable - they are, however, making the 1% of America's lifted military-industrial-pharmaceutical classes more wealthy.

Re:Why Didn’t Denmark Sell Greenland? by toasterlovin on Saturday July 06, 2019 @09:17AM (#20369503)
America is the worst. Except for all the world powers that came before. Be careful what you wish for.
Re:Why Didn’t Denmark Sell Greenland? by fit2rule on Saturday July 06, 2019 @01:40PM (#20370769)
Things can get a lot, lot better than what America has to offer the world. Don't lose hope.
Re:Why Didn’t Denmark Sell Greenland? by macspoofing on Saturday July 06, 2019 @06:55PM (#20372527)
In what way. The way I see it if America pulls back, the alternative is either China picking up the mantle of a superpower and enforcing its world view ... or anarchy where local despots enforce a regional order as they see fit. Did you ever wonder why there was/is a proliferation of democracies and the lack of regional wars between local despots?

I'm genuinely curious what you imagine would replace the present American world order.

Re:Why Didn’t Denmark Sell Greenland? by fit2rule on Sunday July 07, 2019 @03:26AM (#20373965)
>I'm genuinely curious what you imagine would replace the present American world order.

The present American world order requires: a) utter ignorance of its war crimes by its people, b) endless debt to pay for war and war machines, c) invalidation of sovereignty of foreign nations according to American political expediency, d) the pretence of a society governed by systems of democracy while factually being run by a cabal of oligarchs, e) more spent on war per week than on health care for its citizens per year, f) the continued degradation of cultures deemed inferior by the ruling cabal.

I'd be happier if the major world power was actually democratic and used its powers to increase peoples health and well-being rather than the wholesale destruction of, and mass interference with, states not towing the American line ..

Re:Why Didn’t Denmark Sell Greenland? by macspoofing on Sunday July 07, 2019 @04:19AM (#20374094)
You're very good at pointing all the things that you hate about America and you're very good at wishing for an Utopia. Guess what! So is everyone else. Every human is a little arm-chair general about everything. What's hard is building something in a complex, gray world.

So I ask again, what do you think will ACTUALLY happen if America collapses or pulls back to only concern itself with what happens within its border?

Re:Why Didn’t Denmark Sell Greenland? by toasterlovin on Sunday July 07, 2019 @10:43AM (#20375308)
Exactly. The counter factual to the world order that prevails now is not utopia. It is hegemony by some other superpower. The current candidate is China, a country ruled by a government that doesn’t even pretend to care about liberal values.
Re:Why Didn’t Denmark Sell Greenland? by fit2rule on Monday July 08, 2019 @04:35AM (#20380946)
Please let me know when China has demolished a sovereign state, at the same order of magnitude as America has in the last 20 years.

China isn't great, and has its low scores in many ways, but America is far, far worse in terms of its sheer destruction of sovereign states.

Just because the iron fist is wrapped in a velvet glove doesn't make it any better for those being smashed in the face by it, and there is a huge, huge pile of dead bodies behind the American smashing...

Re:Why Didn’t Denmark Sell Greenland? by toasterlovin on Monday July 08, 2019 @03:04PM (#20385722)
A counterfactual is something that has not happened, but could reasonably. The question is not what China has done, since China has not been a world superpower, but how they are likely to behave once they are a superpower. When you argue against the U.S., you have to compare it against what is likely to happen, not what you would like to happen. I think Russia, the last superpower, is probably a good example of how China will behave. And there the comparison makes the U.S. look somewhere between ambiguous to relatively benevolent, depending on how you weigh various wars and geopolitical maneuverings.
Re:Why Didn’t Denmark Sell Greenland? by toasterlovin on Saturday July 06, 2019 @06:57PM (#20372535)
My point is that the common thread throughout history is that world super powers have been incredibly brutal. The sun never sets on the British empire, as they say. For all of its faults, and there are many, America has been a relatively benign superpower.
Re:Why Didn’t Denmark Sell Greenland? by macspoofing on Saturday July 06, 2019 @07:41PM (#20372712)
>My point is that the common thread throughout history is that world super powers have been incredibly brutal.

Huh??? That's the opposite of what happened. Ages with empires are characterized by peace, trade, and cultural and scientific development. War was the default state in the interim time between empires.

And yes, the American empire (if you want to call it that), has been the most prosperous and benign in history.

Re:Why Didn’t Denmark Sell Greenland? by fit2rule on Sunday July 07, 2019 @03:28AM (#20373970)
How many innocent people has America murdered in illegal wars since 2003?
Re:Why Didn’t Denmark Sell Greenland? by macspoofing on Sunday July 07, 2019 @04:29AM (#20374128)
Illegal? To have something be illegal, means there are a set of laws and a body to enforce them. There is no supernational government. There is the UN, a loose confederation of nations to provide a platform to discuss and solve issues on a volunteer basis. This is why it tolerates the existence of authoritarian and autocratic governments as members and why powerful nations even bother with it at all.

Maybe you wish there was a democratic global government, but that isn't the world we exist it and it will not be a world we live in any time soon.

Game of Thrones has a nice metaphor of "summer born", people like you and me who have been born in a time of peace and prosperity - an outlier period in human history - but who think this is the default state of the world.

//

One more point ... Do you disagree that the American 'Empire' has been the most prosperous and peaceful in human history? If so, which one was better?

Re:Why Didn’t Denmark Sell Greenland? by fit2rule on Sunday July 07, 2019 @07:12AM (#20374555)
American wars are illegal even by American law standards.

There is no declaration of war that makes what America is doing in Niger legal, by American legal standards. There certainly isn't any legal cover for America's illegal occupation of Syria. Not to mention, support for genocide in Yemen is absolutely illegal.

Its just that the people remain ignorant of this fact - and its politicians - choose not to enforce those laws for their own purposes (war profit, intolerance, hatred, etc.)

Re:Why Didn’t Denmark Sell Greenland? by toasterlovin on Sunday July 07, 2019 @10:45AM (#20375321)
> Huh??? That's the opposite of what happened. Ages with empires are characterized by peace, trade, and cultural and scientific development. War was the default state in the interim time between empires.

I know. But peacetime can be brutal. As a superpower, America has not taken slaves, nor engaged in genocide, nor established colonies. In those ways it’s hegemony has been much less brutal than all the world superpowers who came before.

Re:Why Didn’t Denmark Sell Greenland? by macspoofing on Saturday July 06, 2019 @06:36PM (#20372448)
Why would it be unlikely? And invasion is too strong a word. Nations could simply ignore Denmark, the way they ignore Canada's claims to the Northwest Passage. Like Canada, Denmark is too weak and inconsequential to do anything about it.
Re:Why Didn’t Denmark Sell Greenland? by goto11 on Saturday July 06, 2019 @05:41AM (#20368818)
Denmark is a member of Nato, so the question is if Nato would be able to hold it.
Re:Why Didn’t Denmark Sell Greenland? by macspoofing on Saturday July 06, 2019 @09:59AM (#20369691)
Canada is a member of NATO and yet it cannot assert its sovereignty over the Northwest Passage.
Re:Why Didn’t Denmark Sell Greenland? by goto11 on Saturday July 06, 2019 @11:14AM (#20370060)
Because it is water, not land. The Nato partners consider it international water and does not accept Canadas claims. I don't think Nato would go to war to prevent anybody sailing past Greenland in international waters either.
Re:Why Didn’t Denmark Sell Greenland? by macspoofing on Saturday July 06, 2019 @06:30PM (#20372424)
> The Nato partners consider it international water and does not accept Canadas claims

Or to out it another way, NATO partners don't respect Canada's sovereignty claims because the Northwest Passage is too valuable and Canada can't enforce its claim. Contrast that to Taiwan, a nation that should be independent, (and is not 'international waters') but no major country is willing to recognize it as such.

Greenland would be the same way.

And by the way, Alaska and Louisiana purchases were executed because Russia and France respectively knew they were never going to be able to hold those territories and ceded it for cash.

Re:Why Didn’t Denmark Sell Greenland? by goto11 on Saturday July 06, 2019 @06:51PM (#20372517)
> Greenland would be the same way.

No, because Greenland is part of NATO and none of the member states disputes that.

Re:Why Didn’t Denmark Sell Greenland? by macspoofing on Saturday July 06, 2019 @07:00PM (#20372553)
We're going in circles now.
Re:Why Didn’t Denmark Sell Greenland? by goto11 on Tuesday July 09, 2019 @02:45AM (#20389515)
It is straightforward though: NATO is an organization for collective defense. The set of territories covered is well-defined, but does not include all territories claimed by each individual member states. For example Hawaii is not included, nor is the Falkland Islands, which is why NATO was not invoked in the Falklands War. But Greenland is included.

A response to an attack is decided on by the NATO council, not by the individual member states. So unless NATO is dissolved (which could of course happen one day but which is certainly not in the cards currently), Greenland is defended by the NATO alliance.

Taiwan is of course not a member of NATO so that example is irrelevant.

Re:Why Didn’t Denmark Sell Greenland? by EGreg on Friday July 05, 2019 @07:46PM (#20366775)
Why sell it?
Re:Why Didn’t Denmark Sell Greenland? by xchaotic on Saturday July 06, 2019 @01:26AM (#20368081)
agreed. A long term lease would be acceptable to both sides, but at this point there's no such offer as US already has a presence there, much cheaper.