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Re:Why Businesses Can’t Stand Free Markets by jerf on Thursday December 23, 2010 @10:27AM (#2034616)
Lobbying is just a fancy word for talking to Congresspeople. Thanks to human psychology, it doesn't even have to look like the mental image many people have of the lobbyist walking in with a suitcase of cash for some major cash transfer in the law. All you have to do is spend time with the Congressperson until their hindbrain decides you are "one of theirs", and then even if they don't consciously steer things your way they will subconsciously steer them your way.

How do you outlaw that? What are you going to do, cloister your Congressperson in their office and forbid them from seeing people? It's actually a big part of their job. Are you going to say that if a Congressperson is considering a certain regulation of a certain industry, under no circumstances should they ever talk to anyone with any connection to that industry? As stupid as law may sometimes be today, that would actually be even stupider.

Yeah, sometimes it does devolve into the suitcase scenario but really that's quite unsubtle.

Re:Why Businesses Can’t Stand Free Markets by sethg on Thursday December 23, 2010 @11:34AM (#2034880)
I think the fundamental problem is that running for national office in the US is extremely expensive¹, so anyone who wants the job and is not independently wealthy has to spend a lot of time fund-raising. Even if the fund-raising does not involve outright corruption, it requires an aspiring Congressperson to spend a lot of time hanging out with people who can afford to make large donations.

The best solution I can think of is public financing of elections, but I am very pessimistic about such a law getting through Congress, even if the Democrats retake the House in 2012.

¹According to figures gathered by the Campaign Finance Institute, it costs about $1.3M to win a House seat and about $7.5M to win a Senate seat. (http://www.cfinst.org/data/HistoricalStats.aspx)

Re:Why Businesses Can’t Stand Free Markets by mseebach on Thursday December 23, 2010 @12:53PM (#2035184)
Why the assumption that Democrats are inherently more interested in campaign finance reform? Obama ran the most expensive campaign in history and took plenty of special interest money.

Seriously, nothing will happen if not even the comparably bright people on this site is able to digest the fact that politics in the US is more complicated (and, indeed more broken) than "democrat good, republican bad". They're pretty much all scum, and the few honest people seem to be pretty well distributed across the parties.

Re:Why Businesses Can’t Stand Free Markets by natnat on Thursday December 23, 2010 @01:11PM (#2035262)
People assume that democrats are more interested in campaign finance reform because most serious attempts to reform campaign finance laws have been spearheaded by Democrats and opposed by establishment Republicans. Every senator who voted against McCain-Feingold was a Republican, and many prominent Republicans and conservative organizations (Mitch McConnell, Newt Gingrich, Heritage Foundation, Cato Institute) approved of the Citizens United decision.

Every politician does whatever they can within the rules (and then some) to get elected, but some want to change the rules because, for example, banning corporate donations would probably hurt Republicans more than Democrats.

Re:Why Businesses Can’t Stand Free Markets by mseebach on Thursday December 23, 2010 @06:55PM (#2036226)
Well, McCain sponsored and Bush signed McCain-Feingold. Second, Citizens United isn't about campaign finance per se. Since the people spending money under CU can't even talk to the campaign they support, this category of spending is at least a layer removed from the candidate, and quid-pro-quo becomes more difficult.

But finally, and my most important point: No, Republicans, to the extend they have a common position doesn't want campaign finance reform. But neither does the democrats (to the extend they have a common position). Most significantly, a very prominent Democrat broke his pledge to take public financing in the face of raising heaps of money and outspend his opponent 2:1.

I mean, perfectly honest, Democratic congress or not, is Obama going to get behind serious campaign finance reform?

Re:Why Businesses Can’t Stand Free Markets by krakensden on Thursday December 23, 2010 @03:29PM (#2035758)
Because Republicans loudly proclaim the equivalency of money and speech, and always come out against attempts to regulate spending in elections?

Seriously, it's part of their platform.

Re:Why Businesses Can’t Stand Free Markets by nicker on Thursday December 23, 2010 @05:20PM (#2036052)
Does anyone else see the irony of public campaign financing as a solution to problems explained in the this article?

In the same way that companies distort regulations of their industry to thwart competition, politicians will ensure that public campaign financing rules will prevent newcomers (e.g. tea party, green party, etc) from ever getting elected.

Re:Why Businesses Can’t Stand Free Markets by JonnieCache on Thursday December 23, 2010 @10:45AM (#2034678)
>How do you outlaw that?

You don't. We change the societal web of incentives such that the people who become legislators are capable of making the distinction between unethical lobbying and their role as representatives on their own.

The people we're getting right now sometimes seem cognitively unable to draw this distinction at all.

EDIT: And how do we do that, I hear you cry? We'll what we're doing right now is a good start. Capitalists, entrepreneurs and some might say downright greedy people having loud, public conversations questioning and debating the role of private business in government, and vice-versa. If this keeps happening, the meme that perhaps such unrestrained lobbying might be harmful will permeate mainstream culture, and when the politicians of the future are preparing their campaign platforms, personal ethical responsibility in their relationship to industry will be at the top of their minds, because they perceive them to be at the top of the minds of those who will be voting for them. Obviously it is too ambitious to expect politicians to act selflessly. Therefore we must make it in their interests to act ethically.

And run-on-sentences. Those help too.

Re:Why Businesses Can’t Stand Free Markets by jimmyk on Thursday December 23, 2010 @11:04AM (#2034769)
It's not just an old adage that power corrupts.
Re:Why Businesses Can’t Stand Free Markets by JonnieCache on Thursday December 23, 2010 @11:14AM (#2034806)
So let's make ethical exercising of power a route to greater power. Hello feedback loop.
Re:Why Businesses Can’t Stand Free Markets by jimmyk on Thursday December 23, 2010 @11:30AM (#2034863)
It would be great if that worked, but it's not like this is the first time corruption in government has been an issue and it's not the first time people have tried to get rid of it either. It comes back as soon as the public stops watching closely.
Re:Why Businesses Can’t Stand Free Markets by cookiecaper on Thursday December 23, 2010 @07:43PM (#2036288)
Indeed. The only way to make sure that politics are not corrupt is to make sure that we never elect a person of dubious morals or intellect. Right now, that's basically all we ever elect. If there's a person in power interested in misappropriating or exploiting that power for self-interest over the general interest, he will probably find a way to do so eventually.

This is why it's relevant when a politician has had an affair; if he is unwilling to uphold the most solemn covenants he makes in his lifetime, to the people to whom is the closest, and upon whom the negative impact of his actions will hit the hardest, why do we have any idea that he will be willing to uphold his covenant to perform in the general interest or uphold the Constitution when his covenant is with an amorphous, anonymous mass of "The People"?

Re:Why Businesses Can’t Stand Free Markets by JonnieCache on Thursday December 23, 2010 @11:41AM (#2034906)
>It would be great if that worked

DHH told me to attempt the impossible if I want to achieve success. I see it as profoundly unimaginative and unambitious to restrict this notion to the fields of business and programming.

You've gotta have a go!

Besides, 'watching closely' is pretty trivial now. The government certainly seems pretty good at doing it to us.

Re:Why Businesses Can’t Stand Free Markets by jamesaguilar on Thursday December 23, 2010 @12:16PM (#2035029)
Sorry to be so pessimistic, but I would say your position is more like trying things that have historically failed many times, but thinking it might work this time. I'm trying to think of a parallel in startups, but I'm drawing a blank.
Re:Why Businesses Can’t Stand Free Markets by steveklabnik on Thursday December 23, 2010 @01:10PM (#2035254)
Micropayments.
Re:Why Businesses Can’t Stand Free Markets by alexqgb on Thursday December 23, 2010 @02:25PM (#2035551)
Space travel.
Re:Why Businesses Can’t Stand Free Markets by chc on Thursday December 23, 2010 @06:09PM (#2036144)
Take a business that was hot five years ago and make the exact same thing.
Re:Why Businesses Can’t Stand Free Markets by JonnieCache on Thursday December 23, 2010 @09:32PM (#2036426)
Powered flight.
Re:Why Businesses Can’t Stand Free Markets by blangblang on Thursday December 23, 2010 @10:53AM (#2034710)
I always picture sacks with '$' on the side rather than suitcases, but I always have difficulty shaking the feeling that lobbying is basically a cash transaction. I constantly have to talk myself out of this. The following is a great, brief string of reasoning that helps: http://volokh.com/2010/01/24/money-and-speech-2
Re:Why Businesses Can’t Stand Free Markets by baddox on Thursday December 23, 2010 @02:18PM (#2035526)
> How do you outlaw that?

You don't. In short, you de-incentivize lobbying by drastically reducing the size, scope, and budget of the federal government as mandated in the Constitution.

Re:Why Businesses Can’t Stand Free Markets by guelo on Thursday December 23, 2010 @04:18PM (#2035888)
Which article of the constitution talks about the size of the federal budget?
Re:Why Businesses Can’t Stand Free Markets by dpatru on Thursday December 23, 2010 @08:27PM (#2036358)
The Constitution sets limits on the scope of federal powers. It also originally banned income taxes. The only money mentioned in the Constitution is gold or silver. All of these restrict the size of the government and its budget.
Re:Why Businesses Can’t Stand Free Markets by bbatsell on Thursday December 23, 2010 @09:11PM (#2036399)
Art. I, Sec. 8, cl. 5 explicitly grants Congress the power to coin money. It restricts the individual states to only using gold and silver as legal tender.

Income taxes were never "banned". Before Pollock v. Farmers' Loan & Trust in 1895, federal income taxes were considered an "indirect" tax constitutionally, and thus only had to meet the requirements of Art. I, Sec. 8, cl. 1, which was that taxes must be uniform geographically. Pollock declared federal income taxes a "direct" tax, which thus had to meet further requirements under Art. I, Sec. 2, cl. 3, which called for the receipts of direct taxes to be apportioned proportionally to the population of each individual state.

The Sixteenth Amendment (ratified 18 years after Pollock) lifted the requirement of proportional distribution; it did not change the constitutionality (or unconstitutionality) of federal income taxes.

Re:Why Businesses Can’t Stand Free Markets by joshkaufman on Thursday December 23, 2010 @11:34AM (#2034881)
Strict single term limits for all members of Congress would go a long way toward making this natural tendency manageable - if it's a natural cycle (and I think it is), then it makes sense to re-start that cycle as often as possible.
Re:Why Businesses Can’t Stand Free Markets by jamesaguilar on Thursday December 23, 2010 @12:14PM (#2035017)
I don't know if this is actually true, but I have heard that the short term limits in California's congress is a big part of why special interest groups have such outsized power in this state. The method of action is supposedly that inexperienced congresspeople do not know how to navigate the processes in Sacramento, and the lobbies come along to help them out.

Like I said, I don't know if it's true, but I don't really see a mechanism by which single term limits will help the situation. In fact, they may make it even worse by making it hard for politicians to distinguish themselves by a record of actually doing good. Instead, the public will have absolutely nothing to go on besides advertisements, which are paid for by guess who.

For the record, I have heard this said from both sides of the aisle. I'm not standing by its truthfulness because government brokenness is a complex issue, but it certainly seems like a valid explanation to me.

Re:Why Businesses Can’t Stand Free Markets by ajays on Thursday December 23, 2010 @03:29PM (#2035759)
I agree with you.

When newbies get elected, they have a tough time navigating the corridors of power. This is where the lobbyists come in: they've seen the system (they probably were a part of it before becoming lobbyists), they know how it works, and they're just too happy to help out. This way their influence grows stronger year by year.

Term limits is not the answer. I think California's open primaries will help in electing moderates, people who are willing to look at all sides of the equation.

Re:Why Businesses Can’t Stand Free Markets by raintrees on Thursday December 23, 2010 @12:14PM (#2035018)
I keep getting stuck on this point as well. One possible idea I keep coming back to: What about limiting campaign contributions to $1 per person/entity? I am guessing there would be quite a bit of backlash against this idea (Besides pols and lobbyists themselves, doesn't media get a lot of advertising dollars from campaigns?) but maybe if we can devalue the process significantly, it won't be quite so one-sided/game-able?
Re:Why Businesses Can’t Stand Free Markets by jokermatt999 on Thursday December 23, 2010 @12:36PM (#2035109)
Wouldn't that just effectively hand lobbying power to the huge corporations? How would that change anything?
Re:Why Businesses Can’t Stand Free Markets by raintrees on Thursday December 30, 2010 @03:06AM (#2051684)
Sorry, I didn't check back to see that anyone had posted...

Just in case you see this, my idea was to limit ALL contributions to $1 per entity - person, corporation, whatever.

Hmmm... So if a corporation had/forced all employees to offer up their dollar to a specific candidate, looks like you are right - It could/would still be gamed... sigh.

Re:Why Businesses Can’t Stand Free Markets by Andrew_Quentin on Thursday December 23, 2010 @04:14PM (#2035870)
I do not think the problem is them talking. I think the problem is them giving money indirectly through campaign contributions.

One statistic the article states is that some organisation spent about 700,000 dollars in lobbying and 2.5 millions in campaign contributions. I only wonder which was more effective.