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Re:Apple Hires Key Chip Designer From ARM as Own Efforts Ram... by scarface74 on Wednesday June 26, 2019 @09:30PM (#20290988)
For how much longer? I'm not asking facetiously, the trends across the entire industry are quite obvious at this point.

This same panic has been going on since 10.6 with the introduction of the Mac App Store. How do you propose that you would be able to develop software on the Mac if you had to sign your executable every time that you recompiled it?

It's a bad thing that modern "security measures" somehow consistently manage to be as restrictive towards user freedom as possible.

So what would be the financial motive for Apple to force signing of apps and allow them to be outside of the App Store? What would be the financial motive of making system files readonly or introducing DriverKit to increase stability. Do you really want third party kext to be “free” to crash your entire system?

Re:Apple Hires Key Chip Designer From ARM as Own Efforts Ram... by opencl on Wednesday June 26, 2019 @09:52PM (#20291091)
They could require a paid Apple developer account to sign MacOS binaries just like they do with iOS (with the exception of those certs that expire after a week).

I think they would be crazy to do it and don't really expect them to anytime soon but they clearly could. The financial motive is exactly the same as the iOS App Store: get 30% of all app sales revenue and make the OS more secure.

Re:Apple Hires Key Chip Designer From ARM as Own Efforts Ram... by scarface74 on Wednesday June 26, 2019 @10:51PM (#20291358)
So how do you propose they force signing for programs built on top of a VM like C# or Java or scripting languages?

Also, they don’t get 30% of all app sales. All of the biggest non game money makers either allow you to purchase subscriptions and content outside of the store or force you to.

Re:Apple Hires Key Chip Designer From ARM as Own Efforts Ram... by opencl on Thursday June 27, 2019 @11:15AM (#20295144)
The same way they already force signing for iOS programs. I don't know the details but you can write iOS apps in C#, Java, and Python today so clearly this solution already exists.
Re:Apple Hires Key Chip Designer From ARM as Own Efforts Ram... by scarface74 on Thursday June 27, 2019 @03:21PM (#20297663)
No a solution doesn’t exist - all of those solutions compile down to a native executable and don’t run on a VM. Even in a hypothetical unlikely future where the JVM, CLR, and whatever runtimes the scripting languages run on had to be signed (which is not a bad idea), you still would be able to write a program that did whatever you wanted unless now you’re going to say that in this hypothetical future, Apple is not only going to force signing, it’s also going to refuse to sign any executable that can run other programs.
Re:Apple Hires Key Chip Designer From ARM as Own Efforts Ram... by Reelin on Wednesday June 26, 2019 @10:02PM (#20291144)
I think they, along with every other major vendor, are consistently moving towards precisely this model. I don't think they will do it soon, but I think it is likely to happen eventually.
Re:Apple Hires Key Chip Designer From ARM as Own Efforts Ram... by Reelin on Wednesday June 26, 2019 @09:59PM (#20291118)
> This same panic has been going on since 10.6 with the introduction of the Mac App Store.

And rightfully so! How is this not an obvious trend to you?! It isn't just Apple, it's cell phones and tablets with unlockable bootloaders, Windows S-Mode, Samsung Knox, Firefox extension signing that can't be disabled, and a great many other examples. It's the trend that's alarming, not the specific way macOS is configured right now.

> How do you propose that you would be able to develop software on the Mac if you had to sign your executable every time that you recompiled it?

By paying the Apple tax for a developer license and then just... signing your code every time you compile it? You already have to do this for Firefox extension development if you don't bother to run a dev or unbranded build. Alternatively, just run your (unsigned) compiled code in a VM.

> So what would be the financial motive ...

The financial motive is the glaringly obvious walled garden! It's the vendor's control over the device you purchased!

> Do you really want third party kext to be “free” to crash your entire system?

Obviously not; that is a bad faith interpretation of what I said previously. There are ways to ensure user security that don't remove control of the system from the end user. These options are consistently not chosen, by more or less all the major manufactures. I believe that the motives for such behavior are quite obvious.

Re:Apple Hires Key Chip Designer From ARM as Own Efforts Ram... by scarface74 on Wednesday June 26, 2019 @10:50PM (#20291350)
By paying the Apple tax for a developer license and then just... signing your code every time you compile it?

You really think after selling computers for 43 years Apple is not going to allow people to compile programs without signing every time you compile?

How do you propose they are going to lock down scripting languages and programs built with .Net Cord and Java? Are they going to disallow any code on the Mac that’s built on top of a VM?

The financial motive is the glaringly obvious walled garden! It's the vendor's control over the device you purchased!

So are they now going to lock down outside vendors from creating whatever the new equivalent of kext are without paying a fee?

bad faith interpretation of what I said previously. There are ways to ensure user security that don't remove control of the system from the end user.

You mean by allowing advanced users of the Mac to turn off safeguards- exactly what they are doing now?

Btw, a lot of developers are saying that moving away from kernel extensions will make it easier to build Hackintoshes not harder.

Re:Apple Hires Key Chip Designer From ARM as Own Efforts Ram... by chipotle_coyote on Thursday June 27, 2019 @02:07AM (#20292102)
> The financial motive is the glaringly obvious walled garden! It's the vendor's control over the device you purchased!

While this is certainly technically possible, I think this presumption -- which I see a fair amount around HN -- is at the least somewhat dubious. There's an extremely crucial difference between the Mac and the iPhone/iPad that this argument downplays at its peril: the iOS ecosystem has never been open in this way; the Mac ecosystem has been open in this way for over three decades. Customers do not tend to react well to having things taken away from them.

What's the cost of not just individual users but whole companies moving off the Mac platform en masse? What's the cost of a press firestorm so intense it'll make the butterfly keyboard shitshow look like free passes to Disneyland? Are you sure so many users would just docilely acquiesce to "guess I'll have to re-buy all my software all over again, herp de derp?" Because for this plan to make sense, Apple needs to sell a whole, whole, whole lot of software to make up for every single person who decides this is the straw that breaks the camel out of the habit of buying $2500 laptops every three or four years.

The bottom line is that I don't think attempting to lock the Mac down to the point the iPad is locked down makes business sense. (I'm not convinced keeping the iPad locked down makes business sense in the long run, either. But that's a different post.)