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Re:Renewables Surpass Coal in U.S. Power Mix by blix on Tuesday June 25, 2019 @09:45PM (#20281160)
I would like to see how the renewable section breaks down in to carbon-intensive varieties vs others.

Non-solar, non-hydro renewables make up the bulk of renewable energy, and with the notable exceptions of wind and geothermal, many of these methods are very dirty. Burning of waste/biomass is probably not significantly better than coal from an emissions or pollution standpoint.

Re:Renewables Surpass Coal in U.S. Power Mix by msisk6 on Tuesday June 25, 2019 @10:05PM (#20281257)
You can go here and download a spreadsheet of Fuel Mix Reports for the ERCOT grid: http://www.ercot.com/gridinfo/generation

In ERCOT wind is 2nd in generation to Gas Combined-Cycle generation (basically jet engines running natural gas). Coal is slightly behind wind and solar and biomass is tiny.

Re:Renewables Surpass Coal in U.S. Power Mix by blix on Tuesday June 25, 2019 @10:10PM (#20281274)
I dug a little deeper into the EIA reports and their non-hydro renewables category is almost 90% wind. Wind and hydro alone are almost even with coal in April, with the other contributions being quite small.
Re:Renewables Surpass Coal in U.S. Power Mix by chrisco255 on Tuesday June 25, 2019 @11:12PM (#20281566)
There is a huge wind power boom in north Texas, Oklahoma and Kansas. I saw thousands of windmills driving through there a couple months ago, and must have passed two dozen semis loaded up with blades to build more. It's a sight to see.
Re:Renewables Surpass Coal in U.S. Power Mix by Robotbeat on Tuesday June 25, 2019 @10:37PM (#20281407)
Solar (if you include non-utility solar) was about 3.5% of the total electricity produced in April. That's actually pretty significant. Solar only scraped 1 percent starting in 2015.

(Although I worry about the second derivative... solar's growth is not as impressive in the last 12 months as it was the 12 months prior.)

Re:Renewables Surpass Coal in U.S. Power Mix by Spooky23 on Wednesday June 26, 2019 @01:38AM (#20282175)
Solar punches higher than its weight because it produces marginal electricity at times of peak demand.
Re:Renewables Surpass Coal in U.S. Power Mix by Gibbon1 on Wednesday June 26, 2019 @05:14AM (#20283201)
Yeah people compare solar pricing to subsidized baseload prices. Which is unfavorable. Instead of the more lucrative peeking plant pricing which is higher. Often a lot higher.
Re:Renewables Surpass Coal in U.S. Power Mix by xyzzyz on Tuesday June 25, 2019 @10:44PM (#20281439)
Gas Combined Cycle is more than just jet engine running natural gas: it’s also using exhaust gasses to boil water to make steam to run steam turbine. You have both direct electricity generation from turbine burning gas, and also second stage of steam turbine generation.
Re:Renewables Surpass Coal in U.S. Power Mix by shereadsthenews on Tuesday June 25, 2019 @10:37PM (#20281402)
Is that true across the nation? I know California isn't the whole energy market but their renewable energy mix is solar, hydro, fission, wind, geothermal, and biomass in that order. It's true that non-hydro, non-solar sources are larger than hydro+solar, but not by a lot and none of the renewable supplies are carbon-intensive.

Wind, by the way, is growing much faster than solar in California and could be larger than solar within a few years.

Re:Renewables Surpass Coal in U.S. Power Mix by rsj_hn on Tuesday June 25, 2019 @10:14PM (#20281301)
From https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.ph...

We see that in 2018 coal produced 1,146,393 thousand Megawatts, which is a decrease of ~60,000 from 2017 (corrected!). Solar produced 66,604 thousand MW in 2018, an increase of ~13,000 from 2017.

In terms of percent of coal, the sources are:

  * solar 6%
  * hydro 25%
  * nuclear 70%
  * natural gas 100%
  * other renewables (mostly waste/biomass) 31%
Re:Renewables Surpass Coal in U.S. Power Mix by pso on Wednesday June 26, 2019 @04:22AM (#20282917)
Why are you assuming other renewables is mostly waste/biomass? In the notes below the table, wind is cleary mentioned. My guesstimate would be that wind was a large proportion. I confirmed by checking wikipedia.

EIA Total for year was listed as 4,177,810 in 1000s of MWhr Other Renewables 354,445 in 1000s of MWhr

From wikepedia - national trends section graph https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_in_the_United_State...

2018 Wind power generated 274,962 in 1000s of MWhr. So makes up over 75% of other renewables. Chart shows wind has grown from 94,000 in 2009. Which combining with the EIA data, showing 143,388 in 2009, means most of the growth in non-solar renewables is from wind.

Re:Renewables Surpass Coal in U.S. Power Mix by RobAtticus on Tuesday June 25, 2019 @10:18PM (#20281315)
2017 had 1,205,835 thousand Megawatts of coal, so 2018 was a decrease of ~60,000. Not an increase of 20k.
Re:Renewables Surpass Coal in U.S. Power Mix by rsj_hn on Tuesday June 25, 2019 @10:31PM (#20281370)
Thanks, corrected!
Re:Renewables Surpass Coal in U.S. Power Mix by noneckbeard on Tuesday June 25, 2019 @09:59PM (#20281223)
While burning waste/biomass adds air pollution it does not introduce new carbon into the system, making it far better than burning coal.
Re:Renewables Surpass Coal in U.S. Power Mix by blix on Tuesday June 25, 2019 @10:08PM (#20281266)
It takes carbon that was not in the air and puts it into the air. The marginal decision to burn a bunch of wood or coal for a unit of energy produces roughly the same effect. It would be better to keep that carbon out of the atmosphere.

Especially when grown specifically, biofuels may have a strong net negative effect as conversion from forest/swamp to arable land releases a huge amount of stored carbon. Burning a forest to grow palm ethanol is a step in the wrong direction.

Re:Renewables Surpass Coal in U.S. Power Mix by p1necone on Tuesday June 25, 2019 @10:20PM (#20281327)
If you keep growing, cutting down, burning and regrowing trees the co2 load in the atmosphere will look like a sine wave (ish). The long-term trend will be flat, not upwards.

We can't "regrow" coal in the same way (across reasonable time scales). (Although burning coal, and planting a corresponding amount of trees and never cutting them down is also an option)

Re:Renewables Surpass Coal in U.S. Power Mix by lostapathy on Tuesday June 25, 2019 @10:45PM (#20281445)
But if the waste biomass is just going to rot if we don’t burn it, the carbon will return to the atmosphere without having any energy harvested along the way. Might as well get something out of the cycle. Granted, we are speeding up the cycle by burning it now vs rotting over time, it the balance of carbon is the same.
Re:Renewables Surpass Coal in U.S. Power Mix by blix on Tuesday June 25, 2019 @11:06PM (#20281531)
That is not the only possible cycle. It could be stored and set on it's way to beoming a fossil fuel in the distant future; the carbon removed from the current short-term cycle. Perhaps not as profitable as the cycle you describe though.
Re:Renewables Surpass Coal in U.S. Power Mix by ForHackernews on Wednesday June 26, 2019 @02:26AM (#20282384)
How?

No really, how? Have you invented some new process for long-term carbon sequestration from waste biomass?

These are hard problems that don't lend themselves well to the HN-preferred format of one-line tech solutionism. If it were as simple and easy as all that, we wouldn't be in this crisis to begin with.

Re:Renewables Surpass Coal in U.S. Power Mix by jogjayr on Wednesday June 26, 2019 @03:11AM (#20282563)
Would stuffing it down in empty mine shafts or oil wells, and sealing up the opening, work?
Re:Renewables Surpass Coal in U.S. Power Mix by ForHackernews on Wednesday June 26, 2019 @02:54PM (#20288000)
Yes. You just solved global warming. Please go collect your noble prize.
Re:Renewables Surpass Coal in U.S. Power Mix by blix on Wednesday June 26, 2019 @03:34PM (#20288347)
I don't think you need to be so condescending.

There's no need for any sort of "new process for long-term carbon sequestration". We just need to stop taking carbon that is in the process of being sequestered by natural cycles and putting it back into the atmosphere. This is an economic challenge not a technical one.

Re:Renewables Surpass Coal in U.S. Power Mix by ForHackernews on Thursday June 27, 2019 @08:55AM (#20293938)
There is no natural sequestration on any kind of timescale that can possibly help us. During the carboniferous era, bacteria had not yet evolved that could break down dead plants. Now, those bacteria exist.
Re:Renewables Surpass Coal in U.S. Power Mix by blix on Thursday June 27, 2019 @02:41PM (#20297277)
That's a pretty strong absolute, which probably means it is not true. It is possible to oversimplify things from multiple angles.

Recent work[1] has argued that microbal and fungal diversity did not play a significant role in the development of coal deposits, but rather it was a combination of environmental effects that generated swamps where anaerobic conditions prevented plant decay. These conditions still exist today, we are just actively removing them.

[1] https://www.pnas.org/content/113/9/2442

Re:Renewables Surpass Coal in U.S. Power Mix by jogjayr on Wednesday June 26, 2019 @11:19PM (#20291475)
It's spelled "Nobel". I'm also not the first person to suggest it. So if it works, the prize wouldn't go to me.

Either way you haven't made a case, or provided sources, for why it wouldn't work.

Some methods are apparently snake oil[1]. But others, such as pumping into saline aquifers[2] may be viable (the source on that is naturally suspicious).

1. https://grist.org/article/rule-four-of-offsets-no-enhanced-o...

2. https://www.spe.org/industry/carbon-capture-sequestration.ph...

Re:Renewables Surpass Coal in U.S. Power Mix by ForHackernews on Thursday June 27, 2019 @08:52AM (#20293921)
No, no the "noble prize" is an award I personally give out to the HN comment that best exemplifies the common phenomenon on this board where a glib oversimplification of a massively complicated issue is used to dismiss the importance of far-reaching changes in favour of a one-line technical fix.
Re:Renewables Surpass Coal in U.S. Power Mix by jogjayr on Thursday June 27, 2019 @11:01PM (#20301129)
I'm aware that far-reaching changes need to occur in society and the economy to solve the climate crisis. Reduction of consumption, renewable energy, planting more forests, efficient transportation, heating and cooling, re-evaluating what we value in life - all of these will play their part. I don't think carbon sequestration alone will fix everything. But if it has the potential to help, why not look into it?
Re:Renewables Surpass Coal in U.S. Power Mix by schiffern on Wednesday June 26, 2019 @03:34AM (#20282651)
> But if the waste biomass is just going to rot if we don’t burn it, the carbon will return to the atmosphere without having any energy harvested along the way. Might as well get something out of the cycle.

This perfectly illustrates the problem with overemphasis on 'carbon accounting.' It leads well-meaning people advocate cutting down the last shreds of wilderness on environmental grounds, because this pernicious carbon oversimplification says we're not "getting something" out of that wilderness land.

In truth wilderness cleans air and water pollution, wetlands and forests buffer precipitation to prevent floods and droughts, and large-canopy trees ~single-handedly cycle rain back up and power the terrestrial water cycle (you heard me right, trees cause ~all inland rain). Even if you prefer to exsanguinate nature and reduce it to bean-counting 'ecosystem services,' surprisingly humans do get something from letting carbon rot blissfully undisturbed on a forest floor somewhere.

So it's not quite accurate to say "the carbon will return to the atmosphere without having any energy harvested along the way" -- bugs and fungi are "getting something" too! This seems insignificant, but such decomposition organisms play major ecosystem roles in breaking down air and water pollutants.

To bastardize Arthur C. Clark, "nature is indistinguishable from sufficiently advanced technology."

> Granted, we are speeding up the cycle by burning it now vs rotting over time, [but] the balance of carbon is the same.

Except in this case, that time variable is very important! It's basic math:

The rate of carbon sequestered per hectare per year is constrained by sunlight and photosynthesis, so the only parameter we can tweak to achieve further gains is the time: how long is the average carbon atom removed from the atmosphere? 1 year? 100 years? Because in the latter case, the equilibrium amount of carbon that can be stored (tonnes/hectare) is 100x greater. Try getting a 100x improvement in photosynthesis!

Humans have so far released ~1,600 gigatonnes from fossil fuels, and Earth has 11.9 gigahectares of non-tundra land. Dividing, that requires 134 tonnes of additional carbon stored (as trees, soil, buildings, somehow) per hectare. Forests store up to 600 tonnes/hectare, so this at least seems physically and thermodynamically achievable (unlike most "carbon sucking machine" proposals).

If carbon is stored in biomass at 5 tonnes/ha/year, to sequester 134 tonnes/ha, again by simple division we must store that carbon for an average of at least 27 years. Or longer, if you want to 'alter' less than 100% of Earth's surface. :)

Obviously the only practical way to implement this is to integrate this carbon storage in our agricultural and built landscapes. What we need is high-carbon-density agricultural systems, suburbs, and cities.

Re:Renewables Surpass Coal in U.S. Power Mix by i2amsam on Tuesday June 25, 2019 @10:19PM (#20281321)
Biomass is a very small percentage of US electric generation.