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Re:If Facebook or Google create their own currency, they can... by michael-ax on Monday June 24, 2019 @06:12AM (#20261947)
Is this obvious only to Europeans?
Re:If Facebook or Google create their own currency, they can... by feanaro on Monday June 24, 2019 @06:26AM (#20262005)
I'm not sure whether geography is a significant factor in this, but I've definitely noticed a trend against such thought on HN.

For instance, whenever I mention the dangers of a single corporation owning everything, including money, and how indistinguishable it makes it from a government, it gets downvoted with no discussion.

Re:If Facebook or Google create their own currency, they can... by empath75 on Monday June 24, 2019 @07:59AM (#20262595)
> You are an old man who thinks in terms of nations and peoples. There are no nations. There are no peoples. There are no Russians. There are no Arabs. There are no third worlds. There is no West. There is only one holistic system of systems, one vast and immane, interwoven, interacting, multivariate, multinational dominion of dollars. Petro-dollars, electro-dollars, multi-dollars, reichmarks, rins, rubles, pounds, and shekels.

It is the international system of currency which determines the totality of life on this planet. That is the natural order of things today. That is the atomic and subatomic and galactic structure of things today! And YOU have meddled with the primal forces of nature, and YOU WILL ATONE!

Am I getting through to you, Mr. Beale?

You get up on your little twenty-one inch screen and howl about America and democracy. There is no America. There is no democracy. There is only IBM and ITT and AT&T and DuPont, Dow, Union Carbide, and Exxon. Those are the nations of the world today.

What do you think the Russians talk about in their councils of state -- Karl Marx? They get out their linear programming charts, statistical decision theories, minimax solutions, and compute the price-cost probabilities of their transactions and investments, just like we do.

We no longer live in a world of nations and ideologies, Mr. Beale. The world is a college of corporations, inexorably determined by the immutable bylaws of business. The world is a business, Mr. Beale. It has been since man crawled out of the slime. And our children will live, Mr. Beale, to see that perfect world in which there's no war or famine, oppression or brutality -- one vast and ecumenical holding company, for whom all men will work to serve a common profit, in which all men will hold a share of stock, all necessities provided, all anxieties tranquilized, all boredom amused.

—- From the movie Network, 1976

Re:If Facebook or Google create their own currency, they can... by mehrdadn on Monday June 24, 2019 @06:44AM (#20262097)
I'm guessing this is because corporations will still obviously be different from governments. For one thing they won't have cops arresting you.
Re:If Facebook or Google create their own currency, they can... by rakoo on Monday June 24, 2019 @07:39AM (#20262443)
Governments keep control on people by the usage of force, but corporations have the means to control people by the use of pleasure. You might not get in jail but if you're not allowed to go where you want/do what you want/talk to who you want, if your life revolves around a single thing and that is removed from you, would you still do it ?

This comic about Orwell's and Huxley's vision of things really lays it in simple terms (https://twistedsifter.com/2010/06/the-saturday-strip-week-13...). The source is, of course, very interesting to read.

Re:If Facebook or Google create their own currency, they can... by mehrdadn on Monday June 24, 2019 @07:46AM (#20262515)
> would you still do it?

Between "do it" and "don't do it"? Well obviously no. But compared to getting thrown in jail? Obviously it's better?

Re:If Facebook or Google create their own currency, they can... by rakoo on Monday June 24, 2019 @12:31PM (#20265319)
Of course the difference in "punishement" is huge, but the important and scary part is that corporations can have a huge control on how people behave without any threat other than "you won't be able to use our service". That was my point.
Re:If Facebook or Google create their own currency, they can... by tshanmu on Monday June 24, 2019 @07:07AM (#20262204)
How can you be sure - if they almost become quasi-goverments - they will surely have quasi-law-enforcement?

A ban by facebook could literally be lifethreatening?

Re:If Facebook or Google create their own currency, they can... by mehrdadn on Monday June 24, 2019 @07:14AM (#20262248)
> How can you be sure

Same way I can be "sure" my bank is going to keep my money safe and give it to me when I need it?

Re:If Facebook or Google create their own currency, they can... by pbhjpbhj on Monday June 24, 2019 @08:13AM (#20262683)
Could you be more clear about your intended meaning. From this you might mean "I can't be sure", or you might mean "the government will step in to prevent it", or you might actually think your bank will keep your money safe, or ...
Re:If Facebook or Google create their own currency, they can... by mehrdadn on Monday June 24, 2019 @08:21AM (#20262746)
Do I have to pick one?
Re:If Facebook or Google create their own currency, they can... by pbhjpbhj on Monday June 24, 2019 @08:31AM (#20262834)
Now you're just trolling.
Re:If Facebook or Google create their own currency, they can... by mehrdadn on Monday June 24, 2019 @08:37AM (#20262881)
Wasn't intending to. I'm pretty serious.
Re:If Facebook or Google create their own currency, they can... by sharedfrog on Tuesday June 25, 2019 @09:19AM (#20273856)
While true now, remember that companies used to own armies[1] and territories[2]. Their motives -- shareholder profit -- have not changed. They do and will strive to grow their power.

It's not a stretch from today to imagine living on company-built cities with private security, paying rent and utilities to the company, with contracts and EULAs serving as laws in all but name.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_East_India_Company

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_rule_in_India

Re:If Facebook or Google create their own currency, they can... by zamazingo on Monday June 24, 2019 @06:52AM (#20262138)
They do though.
Re:If Facebook or Google create their own currency, they can... by empath75 on Monday June 24, 2019 @08:02AM (#20262608)
Don’t be so sure.
Re:If Facebook or Google create their own currency, they can... by mantap on Monday June 24, 2019 @06:31AM (#20262026)
European countries such as Sweden and the Netherlands are at the forefront of submitting themselves to a cashless economy, giving control of the payments infrastructure to Visa and MasterCard. So it's certainly not obvious to all Europeans.
Re:If Facebook or Google create their own currency, they can... by the-dude on Monday June 24, 2019 @06:55AM (#20262149)
In NL creditcards are not very popular, but paying 'by PIN' is.

The network is owned by the Dutch banks, which also provide the online payment platform iDeal.

The fees are low and fixed. Offline, between 15cts and a couple of cents ( I don't know how low for the big retailers, 5cts ? )

The online fees are a bit higher, starting at 29cts.

There are no variable fees. There is no 'refund' or 'insurance'. Lots of shops do not accept creditcards ( I know of no big retailer which does ).

Re:If Facebook or Google create their own currency, they can... by martin_a on Monday June 24, 2019 @07:05AM (#20262193)
The same is true for Germany. We have a vast number of different systems for cashless payment, with every bank trying to push its own system. It's not like Visa and Master Card are the two major players.
Re:If Facebook or Google create their own currency, they can... by the-dude on Monday June 24, 2019 @07:11AM (#20262228)
Except we don't have a vast number of systems. We have 1.
Re:If Facebook or Google create their own currency, they can... by martin_a on Monday June 24, 2019 @09:44AM (#20263437)
Talking about NL or DE?
Re:If Facebook or Google create their own currency, they can... by whereistimbo on Monday June 24, 2019 @11:10AM (#20264295)
NL of course. It's the same commenter.
Re:If Facebook or Google create their own currency, they can... by lostmyoldone on Monday June 24, 2019 @08:48AM (#20262968)
It's not seen as a big deal here in Sweden, partially because of history, and partially because of banking regulations, with some of those being EU regulations.

Note that I don't believe having companies - especially large ones that isn't primarily banks - in control of payments of any kind is a good idea, I think it's a terrible idea.

Yes, us Swedes use cards a lot, and almost every card in Sweden has Visa or MasterCard stamped on it. Most are debit cards, and the well know logos weren't there to begin with. Initially, almost all cards were debit cards issued by the various Swedish banks. Banks that people used to trust back then.

While those payment systems are technically private, they aren't perceived as such. Maybe because of the banks, maybe because they are regulated quite heavily, but people generally have confidence they won't be cut off by the bank. Personally I don't know anyone, or have heard of anyone getting denied a debit card. While that's not a useful statistic, it shows why people might perceive it the way they do.

Since 2017 the laws implementating the then new EU banking directives demands that the banks must offer any basic payment solution/product to everyone if they offer it to anyone. There are some exceptions, mostly regarding money and banking fraud, but it seems to be somewhat rare in practice, at least it doesn't seem to have garnered much attention in news.

There are however talks of introducing some kind of legal tender laws, as it is currently possible to get into a situation where you have money, but can't pay. Which is obviously terrible.

Re:If Facebook or Google create their own currency, they can... by mg74 on Monday June 24, 2019 @07:05AM (#20262191)
Iceland is very much at this forefront. The payments infrastructure is operated by the local banks (directly or indirectly), not by Visa/Mastercard.
Re:If Facebook or Google create their own currency, they can... by C1sc0cat on Monday June 24, 2019 @07:33AM (#20262412)
They Trust the Icelandic banks that much after the recent fiasco's
Re:If Facebook or Google create their own currency, they can... by mg74 on Tuesday June 25, 2019 @10:39AM (#20274646)
Throughout the entire 2008 crisis, the payment networks never stopped functioning. Not for a day, not for a minute.