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Re:Study: Tesla Autopilot misleading, overestimated more tha... by neotek on Saturday June 22, 2019 @12:07AM (#20247965)
>Tesla is making progress, and regardless of whether they survive these various courts of public opinion, they're helping to lay the ground work for safer roads by forcing the industry to integrate more and more automated safety systems.

They're also wilfully misrepresenting the quality and safety of their technology to their customers, presenting intentionally misleading statistics to the media about it, and attempting to suppress all criticism by insisting it's part of some big oil / short seller conspiracy.

Re:Study: Tesla Autopilot misleading, overestimated more tha... by Cookingboy on Saturday June 22, 2019 @12:43AM (#20248067)
If you go to certain sub-Reddits or other similar forums, you will see that there is a tremendous amount of misinformation associated with Tesla, Tesla Auto Pilot, driver assist technology and Full Self Driving technology in general. I largely blame the absurdly irresponsible misinformation campaign spearheaded by Tesla and Elon personally. It's awful to get the public's understand of a nascent and potential game changing technology to start off on such a terrible note.

Some of the most common mis-conceptions I've seen include:

1. Level 5 Full Self Driving tech is right around the corner, with government regulation being the biggest show stopper. Elon promised "feature complete" of FSD by end of this year, and claims that within 6-12 months of that full level 5 self driving will be ready to ship to consumers.

2. Tesla is unique in their usage of computer vision in their FSD stack, and the rest of the industry only uses LIDAR. In reality almost everything Tesla does Waymo and others also do and very likely do it better, and on top of that they use LIDAR.

3. Since companies like Waymo employs pre-mapping and LIDAR, what they are building is a completely hardcoded solution to driving with very low degree of versatility and flexibility. I've seen Tesla fan suggesting that Waymo handles Stop Signs by hard coding the location of each stop sign in the map.

4. Because Auto Pilot, a level 2 driver assist system is being shipped in production cars and are racking up millions of miles, Tesla does not need any actual comprehensive testing of their FSD stack. I've seen many Tesla fans arguing this is why Tesla has done more test and gathers more "data" than companies like Waymo, when in reality Tesla's FSD system has seen almost ZERO actual testing anywhere, and puts them far behind competitors.

5. OTA updates makes Auto Pilot safer than competitors. In reality OTA very often enables less stringent QA and less rigorous regression testing. The Mountain View driver who was killed at the 85/101 on-ramp was the result of a terrible AP regression that failed to handle concrete barriers that it used to handle.

6. Auto Pilot is already safer than human driver because it has lower accidents/mile than the national average. This one is especially egregious since Tesla used active AP safety data compared against all motor vehicle accident data, which includes motorcycles and cars of all ages, driven by drivers of all ages, employing safety techs (or lack there of) of all levels, driving in all conditions. Where as active AP data is gathered by Tesla cars that's newer than 5 years old, driven by older, wealthier drivers, employs crucial safety tech such as automatic emergency braking, and only engaged during favorable conditions (mostly highway driving, clear weather, etc). When compared against data from cars with AEB, Auto Pilot has very comparative safety record.

Elon always had a tendency to be fast and loose with facts/predictions/promises, and usually I view them as entertaining at best and disappointing at worst, but with safety critical features like this what he's doing makes me feel borderline angry. A few major mistakes will set back the industry by years and as of now, Tesla is literally the only driver assist system that has a fatality count. I honestly cannot understand how any engineers with good conscious can still work on AP/FSD at Tesla and sleep well at night.

Re:Study: Tesla Autopilot misleading, overestimated more tha... by Faark on Saturday June 22, 2019 @09:16AM (#20249435)
Your statements seem to have quite a slant as well.

> 3. [..] I've seen Tesla fan suggesting that Waymo handles Stop Signs by hard coding the location of each stop sign in the map.

I'm sure you'll see uninformed individuals behaving uninformed. But in my experience does this not represent the average of e.g. the r/tesla community. It's surprising to have you specifically mention Waymo, since it was mostly others (especially German car makers) who usually bring up how important high precision maps (or more recently "5G", while we're mentioning buzzwords) is for self driving. My first google result right now was from Lyft [0]. I can totally understand how people less informed on the topic can get that wrong.

> 4. [..] when in reality Tesla's FSD system has seen almost ZERO actual testing anywhere

What? The usual argument I remember is Tesla outsourcing the testing to its customers and the many good reasons against it. But how can you in good faith represent the tesla AP as untested after it has driven millions of miles? Or are you specifically talking about whatever final L5 FSD solution Tesla might come up with one day? Since this obviously cannot be tested yet, since it doesn't exist.

> 5. The Mountain View driver who was killed at the 85/101 on-ramp was the result of a terrible AP regression that failed to handle concrete barriers that it used to handle.

Can you source that being caused by a regression? The best I've found [1] mentions someone else saying it got worse in a comparable spot, but I also remember reading the killed driver having specifically complained to Tesla about the location the crash happened, but not if AP behavior there had gotten better in between.

But yeah, a lot of Tesla's communication around that case was horrible and I also don't feel they do enough to stop their fans and customers from being aware of the technologies current limits.

[0] https://medium.com/@LyftLevel5/https-medium-com-lyftlevel5-r... [1] https://arstechnica.com/cars/2019/03/dashcam-video-shows-tes...

Re:Study: Tesla Autopilot misleading, overestimated more tha... by Cookingboy on Saturday June 22, 2019 @12:25PM (#20250391)
>Or are you specifically talking about whatever final L5 FSD solution Tesla might come up with one day? Since this obviously cannot be tested yet, since it doesn't exist.

According to Elon they will reach feature complete by end of this year, but somehow that's achieved without any real world testing and validation, and they are supposed to be shipping to customers by next year.

Re:Study: Tesla Autopilot misleading, overestimated more tha... by wcoenen on Saturday June 22, 2019 @04:53AM (#20248677)
> Tesla is literally the only driver assist system that has a fatality count

Uber had a fatal self-driving accident.

Re:Study: Tesla Autopilot misleading, overestimated more tha... by Cookingboy on Saturday June 22, 2019 @12:26PM (#20250397)
Uber isn't selling their self-driving system to anyone, precisely because they know it's not safe and reliable yet.
Re:Study: Tesla Autopilot misleading, overestimated more tha... by natch on Saturday June 22, 2019 @01:28PM (#20250691)
...and, goalposts moved.
Re:Study: Tesla Autopilot misleading, overestimated more tha... by natch on Saturday June 22, 2019 @01:35AM (#20248194)
While you make some interesting points, you are playing fast and loose with the difference between predictions and promises.

Elon says he thinks development cars will have FSD by the end of the year and you take it as a "promise" that they will have it and a "claim" that it will then be in production cars shortly thereafter.

He couched his predictions with a lot of caveats that you are ignoring while you engage in disingenuously calling the predictions "promises" and "claims."

Re:Study: Tesla Autopilot misleading, overestimated more tha... by fwip on Saturday June 22, 2019 @02:15AM (#20248284)
“I think we will be ‘feature-complete’ on full self-driving this year, meaning the car will be able to find you in a parking lot, pick you up, take you all the way to your destination without an intervention this year,” Musk said during a podcast interview with the money management firm ARK Invest, which is a Tesla investor. “I am certain of that. That is not a question mark.”
Re:Study: Tesla Autopilot misleading, overestimated more tha... by natch on Saturday June 22, 2019 @03:03AM (#20248394)
Yep. Not a promise by any understanding of the word. He’s just saying what he thinks.
Re:Study: Tesla Autopilot misleading, overestimated more tha... by stevesimmons on Saturday June 22, 2019 @03:37AM (#20248468)
He's not some random person. He's the CEO and driving force behind a company that is investing billions in getting to FSD.

If he "thinks" it is achievable with that short timeframe, he must have a project plan with milestones being predictably achieved in accordance with that schedule.

If instead there's no such plan, or the progress is not in line with prior internal expectations, he doesn't "think" it is achievable, he wishes it, and it is unlikely to be achieved by that time.

Whether it is a promise or not isn't the point!

Re:Study: Tesla Autopilot misleading, overestimated more tha... by natch on Saturday June 22, 2019 @01:30PM (#20250704)
He said very clearly what he thinks is achievable. Full self driving in dev vehicles. No argument there. The OP was extrapolating this to other levels. What exactly do you have an issue with?
Re:Study: Tesla Autopilot misleading, overestimated more tha... by mjamesaustin on Saturday June 22, 2019 @03:10AM (#20248405)
Tesla recently did an accidents/mile comparison of their own cars with Autopilot engaged vs not engaged and found a noticeable decrease in accident rates for Autopilot driving compared to manual driving.

Some of that difference could be accounted for in the types of miles customers choose to activate autopilot on vs drive manually, but it's certainly a positive sign.

Re:Study: Tesla Autopilot misleading, overestimated more tha... by camjohnson26 on Saturday June 22, 2019 @03:31AM (#20248458)
I would say virtually all of the difference is because autopilot is engaged when driving is easy and humans intervene often. Look at the forums and you’ll see tons of stories of shadow braking and lane merging problems.
Re:Study: Tesla Autopilot misleading, overestimated more tha... by bildung on Saturday June 22, 2019 @05:35AM (#20248781)
Births in hospitals have, on average, more complications than births at home. But not because births at home are inherently better, but rather because protentially complicated births are done at hospitals do be able to better care for mother and child.

People use Teslas cruise control in inherently safer situations. A proper comparison would compare identical road s - and would be done by a neutral body not involved with Tesla.

Re:Study: Tesla Autopilot misleading, overestimated more tha... by robertAngst on Saturday June 22, 2019 @06:20AM (#20248887)
I can confirm I have seen Elon and Tesla Marketing do 'horrible' things. Its one of the least ethical mainstream companies.

If I could warn anyone, I found our fellow 'highly educated' nerds, fall for marketing, similar to how we see the uneducated masses fall for populist politicians. I believe this is because these 'nerds', don't work in automotive and have limited understanding of 2019 automotive technology.

Re:Study: Tesla Autopilot misleading, overestimated more tha... by natch on Saturday June 22, 2019 @01:33PM (#20250724)
People also have limited reading and listening skills. They overlook context, caveats, and weasel words and their brains add in levels of certainty and promises that simply aren’t there in the original statements. Blame the people doing the misinterpretation, not the people who made very clear but nuanced statements about possible future developments.