It's a combination of a lot of things. Heavy drinking, gambling, lying to each other (parents), kids don't have bed times or waking times, miss school when they are too tired. Force the older kids to watch the younger kids so they can smoke, drink and talk with friends instead of watch their own kids. Kids would scream and fall on the ground when aren't noticed... the parents will be in the same room talking with friends while their kids scream at them... etc...

Keep in mind, I like these people, odd as they are, we just don't participate in much of what they do/have done that I disagree with. Our friendship overlaps a nice quiet area in life where we barbequed together, and mostly relax and let kids play or school activities. They do sometimes overcompensate it odd ways, sending their kids to camps and overly involved in sports and outside school stuff.

But they are kind, helpful, hard workers. And despite the fact that they don't do many things well, they do spend time with their kids.

Maybe there's something valuable about time spent, even if it's not "well" based on parenting experts advice?

IMHO time spent is the most important part of good parenting, by a lot. Necessary but not sufficient and all. Obviously there's much more, but that's a baseline a lot of kids don't get, and it shows more than anything else (outside of horrors like abuse, obviously). I don't think having older kids watch younger ones to give the parents some free time is a negative; you give up _so_ much of your time as a parent its hard to even describe.

It's valid point to have the older kids help, it just bothered me how it was done. The mom would basically expect a 10 year old girl to change diapers while the other kids played, and the mom drank. (the reliance on the older kids was just over the top)

Again, these are friends of ours who we care about, but they did some things that seemed selfish. But again, their adult children and decent and so far well adjusted.

I have kids too, eventually you are done doing the baby-chores like diaper duty. It is exhausting at times, but it's not forever.