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Re:No Kings: How Do You Make Good Decisions Efficiently in a... by colordrops on Tuesday June 11, 2019 @03:45PM (#20158874)
The point of a "flat" organization is not that there is no hierarchy or structure, but that it is not officially prescribed, and instead emerges organically. This allows the structure to change as the needs and members of the team change, whereas in a traditional organization, the leadership and structure often long outlive their usefulness.
Re:No Kings: How Do You Make Good Decisions Efficiently in a... by wang_li on Tuesday June 11, 2019 @03:56PM (#20158962)
Unless everyone can spend money drawn from the corporate account, and everyone can fire anyone else, the structure isn't flat. It's just that management is choosing not to manage. There is a difference.
Re:No Kings: How Do You Make Good Decisions Efficiently in a... by colordrops on Tuesday June 11, 2019 @09:53PM (#20161092)
There are many different layers and dimensions to an organization. Finances and hiring are just a couple. There are also product, sales, marketing, support, IT, and many others. Some can be flat while others are not, and in that case, yes, management responsibilities are de facto, temporary, and built through consensus.
Re:No Kings: How Do You Make Good Decisions Efficiently in a... by jacques_chester on Tuesday June 11, 2019 @10:09PM (#20161162)
The power to hire or fire and the power to spend money are basically the two most central powers in any company.

The first decides who the company is. The second can decide whether there is a company.

Identity and existence are fairly fundamental things.

Re:No Kings: How Do You Make Good Decisions Efficiently in a... by colordrops on Tuesday June 11, 2019 @10:39PM (#20161288)
Sure, just as wood, concrete, drywall, and paint are pretty fundamental things to building a house. Using the same materials, two houses could come out very different.

There is a spectrum of management style, from complete micromanagement of every schedule, ticket, and team structure. At the other end of the spectrum, you let the product owners set those parameters then reward or punish according to outcomes. Basically just define the fitness function and the product owners will do the rest. People highly underestimate the motivation of ownership and freedom. By the way this only works in orgs with highly capable employees that are self driven. There are not a lot of orgs like this, hence why so many think flat doesn't work. I've had the rare opportunity to work at an org that successfully functioned in this way.

Re:No Kings: How Do You Make Good Decisions Efficiently in a... by jacques_chester on Tuesday June 11, 2019 @10:47PM (#20161315)
Your original interlocutor argued that

> Unless everyone can spend money drawn from the corporate account, and everyone can fire anyone else, the structure isn't flat.

which I don't think you ever really addressed. That there is more than these powers doesn't change that these powers are basically what defines meaningful hierarchy. They are necessary, but not sufficient; other functions are contributory, but neither necessary nor sufficient in themselves.

You can't have a company without money and people. That's literally what a company is.

Re:No Kings: How Do You Make Good Decisions Efficiently in a... by colordrops on Wednesday June 12, 2019 @12:40AM (#20161819)
> You can't have a company without money and people. That's literally what a company is.

To reiterate my point by playing off your statement: you also can't have a company without a product or service (unless you are Enron). Budgets and hiring are very important, but not core. I have to respectfully disagree.

Re:No Kings: How Do You Make Good Decisions Efficiently in a... by Scarblac on Tuesday June 11, 2019 @04:49PM (#20159407)
A friend of mine works in a flat organization, and they're growing so they're building a new office building. They got to a plan somehow that includes a coffee bar inside the office, but the budget didn't allow for it, and then all employees had a vote and decided to increase the budget. I wonder how it'll turn out.