Re:"Americans sense that something is wrong with the places ...
by usaar333 on Thursday December 16, 2010 @06:57PM
(#2014444)
Several points:
1) It feels like you are exaggerating population densities. Outside of some ultra high density areas in Manhattan, you aren't going to have 100,000 people in a few blocks. The density of most cities is about 3 to 4x that of suburbs, not orders of magnitude greater. (Note: I'm going off Bay Area data here).
2) Agreed on environmental costs not being accounted for. Developing suburbs would cost more if they were; how much I can't say.
3) On your thought experiment, here's something to think about: The entire world's population can fit in Texas (270,000 sq miles) at density levels found in SF neighborhoods. You'd need just over 3 Texases (or a Texas + Alaska) to do suburban density levels (~900,000 sq miles). But you would need about 19+ million sq miles for farming (russia + canada + us + china + brazil); in other words, the land use savings gained from going fully urban is a rounding error.
3a) On top of that, you already have to build out roads, wires, etc. to get to the farmland. When also given that the land everywhere can absorb some waste with little effect (septic tanks), it actually is efficient to spread the population more evenly throughout this hypothetical world.
4) Again the cost does matter. The interstate highway system has a lower cost per person and higher average utilization per person (defined as US residents) than San Francisco's Central subway does per person (SF residents). Ongoing maintenance still looks the same; San Francisco needs to spend about $51M a year on road maintenance. Sunnyvale is at $4.7M with a 6th of the population and a 3rd the density. There might be some resources saved in higher density, but something is dragging the per capita costs higher in highly dense areas.
1) It feels like you are exaggerating population densities. Outside of some ultra high density areas in Manhattan, you aren't going to have 100,000 people in a few blocks. The density of most cities is about 3 to 4x that of suburbs, not orders of magnitude greater. (Note: I'm going off Bay Area data here).
2) Agreed on environmental costs not being accounted for. Developing suburbs would cost more if they were; how much I can't say.
3) On your thought experiment, here's something to think about: The entire world's population can fit in Texas (270,000 sq miles) at density levels found in SF neighborhoods. You'd need just over 3 Texases (or a Texas + Alaska) to do suburban density levels (~900,000 sq miles). But you would need about 19+ million sq miles for farming (russia + canada + us + china + brazil); in other words, the land use savings gained from going fully urban is a rounding error.
3a) On top of that, you already have to build out roads, wires, etc. to get to the farmland. When also given that the land everywhere can absorb some waste with little effect (septic tanks), it actually is efficient to spread the population more evenly throughout this hypothetical world.
4) Again the cost does matter. The interstate highway system has a lower cost per person and higher average utilization per person (defined as US residents) than San Francisco's Central subway does per person (SF residents). Ongoing maintenance still looks the same; San Francisco needs to spend about $51M a year on road maintenance. Sunnyvale is at $4.7M with a 6th of the population and a 3rd the density. There might be some resources saved in higher density, but something is dragging the per capita costs higher in highly dense areas.