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Re:China Has Whole Towns Focused on Making Electric Cars by NTDF9 on Monday June 03, 2019 @09:45AM (#20082977)
Meanwhile in the US, coal is supposed to be making a comeback, Tesla is close to bankruptcy, solar industry is decimated and we're force-sending smart people out of the country when we need them the most to build stuff like this.
Re:China Has Whole Towns Focused on Making Electric Cars by douglaswlance on Monday June 03, 2019 @10:02AM (#20083138)
If you only read click-bait articles, then that worldview would hold.

But if you read industry journals and look at the data, you'd see that the complete opposite is true.

Re:China Has Whole Towns Focused on Making Electric Cars by loudmax on Monday June 03, 2019 @10:20AM (#20083333)
The executive branch of the federal government is absolutely committed to "clean" coal, the solar industry has plateaued, and immigration is down. Tesla is struggling, but I agree that "close to bankruptcy" is hyperbole.

The GP makes a legitimate point that China's progressive policies are helping to propel the country forward. In the US, progress toward the industries of the future is happening despite government policies, not because of them.

Re:China Has Whole Towns Focused on Making Electric Cars by duxup on Monday June 03, 2019 @10:42AM (#20083577)
The executive branch and even congress to some extent has been committed to clean coal ever since the idea has come about.....

And yet coal plants are shutting down and production slowing.

Most of that "committed" has been throwing some money at research for political reasons, but I don't think there has been a REAL political effort to push coal for much of it as much as gather some votes with some funding and vocal support .... and just let the chips fall where they may.

I think there's a vast range of possibilities when it comes to "support" from elected officials and "control" of a market or such.

Re:China Has Whole Towns Focused on Making Electric Cars by dsfyu404ed on Monday June 03, 2019 @10:31AM (#20083451)
>In the US, progress toward the industries of the future is happening despite government policies, not because of them.

So?

In any democracy government is going to lag the population/private sector when it comes to basically everything because you need more agreement before doing anything than you do in a private cooperation or authoritarian government system so the government winds up deadlocked or going back and fourth on an issue until a strong consensus emerges.

Re:China Has Whole Towns Focused on Making Electric Cars by bryanlarsen on Monday June 03, 2019 @10:38AM (#20083533)
But it's the government's job to ensure that externalities are captured. Without that, the market is going to continue to exploit that rather than finding efficient solutions to minimize those externalities.
Re:China Has Whole Towns Focused on Making Electric Cars by DennisP on Monday June 03, 2019 @09:52AM (#20083048)
Actually Tesla is not close to bankruptcy.

https://cleantechnica.com/2019/05/31/the-media-is-telling-on...

Re:China Has Whole Towns Focused on Making Electric Cars by kissickas on Monday June 03, 2019 @10:41AM (#20083561)
As a Tesla shareholder, the problem is, I trust some of "the media." I don't trust cleantechnica. I have read far too many Seeking Alpha articles to even pretend like I am able to parse out these numbers on my own. What am I to do?
Re:China Has Whole Towns Focused on Making Electric Cars by DennisP on Monday June 03, 2019 @10:55AM (#20083735)
The easy answer is to stop investing in individual stocks and buy index funds. Stock picking is hard enough when you can read financial statements. Media-driven stock picking is rarely successful long-term.
Re:China Has Whole Towns Focused on Making Electric Cars by marvin on Monday June 03, 2019 @10:58AM (#20083773)
You could always hedge and sell half your shares. There’s not much extra info to be parsed here; the market price reflects all publicly available information. The question is whether you’re comfortable with a high-risk bet, or think you’ve understood something about the risk landscape that most others haven’t :) This is completely plausible.
Re:China Has Whole Towns Focused on Making Electric Cars by floatrock on Monday June 03, 2019 @12:29PM (#20085040)
Last year more than 50% of new US generation capacity that came online was renewable. In Q1 of this year it went up to 60% -- https://www.solarpowerworldonline.com/2019/05/renewables-acc.... The current administration is beholden to large coal donors, yes, but all that campaign money is just the final desperate hail-mary of the coal barons.

The beancounters who make the decisions see that renewables are now the cheaper option.

We've even seen cases where plans for cheap gas peaker plants have been scrapped because doing it with batteries is cheaper.

Re:China Has Whole Towns Focused on Making Electric Cars by mncolinlee on Monday June 03, 2019 @10:16AM (#20083272)
No amount of Trump insisting on saving coal will save it at this point. We've hit an inflection point where wind and solar are getting to be cheaper and it's less risk to place a turbine or panel. Barring new coal subsidies or taxes on renewables, coal won't grow in the US.

Tesla isn't having a great look on Wall Street, but that's because investors priced them as a tech company instead of a car manufacturer. They're having demand issues, but they'll adjust and markets will adjust the way they price Tesla shares. They still had no trouble raising funds despite serious new direct competition.

Solar is making huge international wins from cheaper, non-domestic manufacturers, including a few of the first massive installations to come in cheaper than coal.

Immigration is a real issue, of course, but a lot of companies have adjusted by opening R&D offices in Vancouver to be close to the border and the time zone of US tech offices.

Re:China Has Whole Towns Focused on Making Electric Cars by onepointsixC on Monday June 03, 2019 @11:16AM (#20084020)
You're right that coal can't be saved, but not because of wind. Natural gas is dirt cheap and can be a reliable base load while being even more flexible with fast startup and shutdown times.
Re:China Has Whole Towns Focused on Making Electric Cars by StreamBright on Monday June 03, 2019 @10:48AM (#20083653)
If you are comparing solar and wind to coal you are missing the point by 10.000 miles. Coal is base load energy, wind and solar is for peak. You cannot control when the wind blows and over night there is no solar energy. You cannot store a large amount of energy (at least without massive destruction of land). Combining these, you need base load power plants, options: coal, nuclear. In some countries water could be a small fraction of the base load (I think Austria does that). If you have enough wind and solar you can use them to help out with peak but the same amount of fossil peak load has to be in your system as much as wind you got because something has to counter balance the fluctuation wind means. Options for peak load: wind, solar, oil or gas turbines.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_load

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_demand

Re:China Has Whole Towns Focused on Making Electric Cars by icebraining on Monday June 03, 2019 @12:40PM (#20085175)
I'm no expert, but I bet base load is mostly an artifact of having fossil fuels, not a reason to keep them around.

When you have cheap storage in the form of coal or oil barrels, it makes sense to just use energy whenever. But that will change - people will change their behaviors and business processes to adapt to the new conditions. Energy-expensive activities will become asynchronous - programmed to run whenever energy is cheap. Guaranteed energy - knowing you'll have a certain amount of kWh to spend at a specific time - will be expensive, and will be mostly used for prioritizing when the production is low.

Once your real base load drops enough, you won't need much storage to keep up even when production is abnormally low. Keeping a coal plant for the rare situations in which storage isn't enough, simply won't be economical. A natgas plant is more likely.

Re:China Has Whole Towns Focused on Making Electric Cars by StreamBright on Monday June 03, 2019 @02:06PM (#20086194)
I only have a degree in this but you know nowadays on Hn anything goes. Regardless if I literally quote wikipedia about the subject, there are people who know better. Based on this, base load is dead, long live solar + wind!
Re:China Has Whole Towns Focused on Making Electric Cars by icebraining on Monday June 03, 2019 @04:44PM (#20088485)
No offense intended. I did preface by saying I'm no expert. I'm basing my opinion on what I've read by some people, such as:

"What we need for this fluctuating renewable energy in the electricity mix is not baseload. Baseload is poison for our electricity transition in Germany," -- Thorsten Herdan, a director general for energy policy at the German Federal Ministry for Economic Affairs and Energy

"The idea of there being an average or 'base' electricity load, doesn't make sense. Let alone having this sort of big, slow-changing power station to meet that load," -- CSIRO Energy Director Dr Glenn Platt.

"Technology has moved on from base load, and now you want flexible power. And that's what demand management, batteries and pumped hydro is," -- Professor Andrew Blakers, director of the ANU Centre for Sustainable Energy Systems.

And reports like Brattle Group's "Advancing Past “Baseload” to a Flexible Grid", and a few more which I have forgotten the name of.

And of course, knowing about the tech (IoT and such) that enables real-time communication of energy prices. And finally, my own guess that people will change their behaviour if it hits their wallet.

Sorry if I misread or got the arguments wrong.

Re:China Has Whole Towns Focused on Making Electric Cars by StreamBright on Tuesday June 04, 2019 @01:36AM (#20092213)
None taken. You are quoting politicians and their wishful thinking here. Of course, they say what you want to hear.

I could answer you by writing a very lengthy essay, but I do not have the time or motivation to do that. Instead, if what they are saying is true why does Germany has 7 outs of 10 of the worst CO2 producing sources in the EU all of them are coal power plants?

https://infographic.statista.com/normal/chartoftheday_17582_...

The answer is: German mass hysteria made the country to turn off its nuclear power plants (you know, the other type of base load power plant that does not produce CO2) while not having any other option because renewables are not going to give you enough power. As a result they run on coal.

Lets add to the mix of the price of doing that:

https://ibb.co/rvJ1Wb2

So to sum it up, Germany produces the most CO2 in the EU and having the most expensive energy price by a large margin. This happens when you try to bend reality to your ideology instead of facing the challenges of our world and try to solve it.

It should be clear at this stage that without serious advencement in storing energy you cannot have a green solution to our energy needs. My prediction to the future, we are going to use solar + nuclear in the future because the combination of these two gives the best option of humanity and also because these work in a setup when you need the energy in space.

Re:China Has Whole Towns Focused on Making Electric Cars by magduf on Monday June 03, 2019 @03:04PM (#20086953)
>we're force-sending smart people out of the country when we need them the most to build stuff like this.

What are you referring to here?