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Re:If people tried to pay for other services like they try t... by trotsky on Tuesday December 14, 2010 @09:19PM (#2006751)
It does go both ways, though. I'm a software developer/consultant and am sympathetic to the video but lets look at from the other side.

Most pro level consulting teams work open ended time and materials contracts. There's very good reasons for this, but this definitely gets abused to deliver a project that was never expected to come in on budget. It also exposes the client to the effects of bad management or other incompetence without a lot of redress.

Imagine if you were buying a hamburger and they told you that because they burned the first one you're going to have to pay double.

The hard bargaining can go both ways too. I've included what I considered ridiculous rates in a first draft of a proposal (to give me room to negotiate) only to have them often accepted without a blink. In fact, I'm quite sure not having a standard rate card has been responsible for hundreds of thousands of extra money over the years.

It sounds to me like the creator of the video probably does fixed price bidding, at least in part. In my experience that's never a good idea or worth doing - even if you can manage it OK (extremely unlikely) you end up alienating the customer by having to be so anal about scope creep.

If you have a contract where's the after the fact negotiation come from anyway? Are they really willing to say then sue me?

Re:If people tried to pay for other services like they try t... by kls on Tuesday December 14, 2010 @09:47PM (#2006825)
It sounds to me like the creator of the video probably does fixed price bidding, at least in part. In my experience that's never a good idea or worth doing - even if you can manage it OK (extremely unlikely) you end up alienating the customer by having to be so anal about scope creep.

I whole heartily agree with your summation. Fixed price just sets it off on the wrong foot in the first place. What I generally do, is provide my best estimate of what the project will take. I also agree if the project runs past my estimate by 15% that I reduce my rate to my bottom dollar rate. This way I am not handing it out for free, but they understand that I am not trying to run up the clock as well. The other thing we agree on is that any feature creep pushes the estimate back by the size of the feature. I have found that this works well, gives the customer a comfort level, and though it is my rock bottom rate, I am not eating costs left and right for a project that goes bloody. It cost me opportunity costs but not hard out of pocket costs which are far harder to swallow.

Re:If people tried to pay for other services like they try t... by tocomment on Tuesday December 14, 2010 @10:04PM (#2006864)
That's pretty smart.
Re:If people tried to pay for other services like they try t... by kls on Tuesday December 14, 2010 @11:34PM (#2007071)
Well I don't know about smart, but it is practical. The problem with our profession and the reason the video while comical is not accurate. We get compared to other professionals a lot, like doctors or lawyers but the problem is unlike doctors or lawyers, each new job we do, is like performing a completely new procedure.

I mean if the doctor overruns putting your new liver in, it is by a few hours at most. The economies of scale are way out of whack to make those kind of comparisons. What other professional, in generally do is a reproduces group of processes.

Our profession is unique in the fact that while there are similarities in what we do, each new project is wholly different (if you are doing custom apps). Now we do have stuff like Wordpress that make the simple stuff cookie cutter but for the most part people are not looking for that when they hire a custom software developer. They are looking for a new and novel product. The problem is that it is one of the only professions where product development is purchased from small and unsophisticated buyers.

We really are a unique profession in which our product is still crafted and not manufactured. The problem is as a society we have gotten used to everything being manufactured so the expectation is that building software is akin to manufacturing where the reality is it is more akin to an art and just like art, their are few really talented artist to go around.

Understanding, this goes a long way to helping customers see your value without alienating them by becoming defensive. I read the horror stories about bad clients all the time and sometimes wonder if it is a lack of educating the customer. I have had maybe 2 or 3 really bad customers in my 20 years. I just don't see how luck could produce those odds. I don't think I have a secret sauce and I am sure I have turned a good deal away that would have been bad customers, I just take time to understand their needs and to explain how software development works. Usually, if someone does not feel like they are getting screwed they are pretty agreeable.

If someone comes to me and says I have 50k to build X and X looks like 40K to me, I will tell them I am not comfortable taking the gig, based on the fact if it overruns they don't have the reserve to see it through and that I do not want to leave a customer without a product at the end of 50k. They then either tell me what they can burn to, which is usually far more than needed or we both agree that they are putting their capital at risk. In which case, I try to work with them to trim features to get it to a 25k product. Double the estimate overruns are rare if one is even remotely decent at estimation.

Re:If people tried to pay for other services like they try t... by vacri on Wednesday December 15, 2010 @01:06AM (#2007237)
"I mean if the doctor overruns putting your new liver in, it is by a few hours at most."

Speaking as someone who went to get a new filling in June, went through getting a root canal on another tooth, and finally will end up going under a GA to get some more serious work done in a month or two, I can assure you that doctors (well, dentists) do <i>not</i> charge on a fixed-symptom basis.

Even if you need to return to a doctor only to get a new copy of a script you have already had, most doctors will charge you the consult time.

Given that you appear to suggest there is no art to medicine, it sounds like you have no exposure to the medical world. Our profession isn't as unique as you make it out to be.

Re:If people tried to pay for other services like they try t... by kls on Wednesday December 15, 2010 @07:51AM (#2007901)
You are right, my exposure to medicine is pretty cut and dry, so I was speaking from my experience. As well I did not mean it as derogatory towards medicine practitioners. My summation was more geared towards routine surgery which for the majority of us, is what medicine is, check-ups and routine surgery.

Most of us are fortunate to not have medical anomalies that require anything other than routing medical attention in which case prices are pretty cut and dry. My point was when a doctor recommends a path of treatment they usually have a comfort level with that treatment and it's effectiveness.

In your case the filling, the root canal and the serious work where three separate projects. In the development world, you would get the requirements for the filling and the root canal would feature creep in as the filling was being done. That was my point, was that doctors (for the most part) have pretty fixed problem sets like root canal where developers have different problem sets for each new project.

Re:If people tried to pay for other services like they try t... by michael_dorfman on Wednesday December 15, 2010 @02:49AM (#2007402)
* I can assure you that doctors (well, dentists) do <i>not</i> charge on a fixed-symptom basis.*

Interestingly, under the Medicare reimbursement system, that's pretty much exactly how they are paid (if the patient is a Medicare patient).

Re:If people tried to pay for other services like they try t... by vacri on Wednesday December 15, 2010 @03:30AM (#2007471)
Are you honestly saying that if you go to your local bulk-billing doctor with a stubborn symptom that won't go away, necessitating multiple visits, that the doctor will only ever be paid for the first consultation? That the rest are all (metaphorically) 'bug-fixes that are included in the original fixed-price spec'?

Ain't so. Doctors get paid for their time, Medicare just has the government pay for it instead of the patient.

Also, dentists in particular are poorly covered by medicare here. I remember as a student going to a dentist that was affiliated with my uni and having the receptionist laugh when I pulled out my medicare card...

Re:If people tried to pay for other services like they try t... by philwelch on Wednesday December 15, 2010 @01:32PM (#2009188)
You and michael_dorfman are probably talking past each other, on account of being from different countries with different "Medicare" systems. The US, Australia and Canada all have systems called "Medicare".

In the US, Medicare is only for old people, and it's uncommon for them to attend university. Also, "uni" isn't a usual American colloquialism. So it appears that michael_dorfman is talking about US Medicare, and you're probably talking about Australian Medicare.

Re:If people tried to pay for other services like they try t... by michael_dorfman on Wednesday December 15, 2010 @08:25AM (#2007988)
I was thinking of a hospitalization setting, where the payment is made for a DRG (a Diagnosis-Related Group) regardless of the specific procedures performed.

Cf http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diagnosis-related_group

Re:If people tried to pay for other services like they try t... by vishaldpatel on Tuesday December 14, 2010 @11:25PM (#2007051)
They'd have to agree that your bottom dollar rate is reasonable and that you can easily make your top dollar by spending that time elsewhere.
Re:If people tried to pay for other services like they try t... by kls on Tuesday December 14, 2010 @11:45PM (#2007093)
Sure it's about 1/3 the rate I charge, so it is reasonable for me, if they don't agree then we usually never come to a meeting of the minds. As well, I have had clients try to use it against me in negotiating my rates down, but for the few that do they either see the value of my top dollar (to somewhere in the middle) after negotiations or they find another consultant.

The reality is, I am fine with my middle rate, I expect negotiation so my mind is in the middle, if they don't negotiate, then the rest is gravy but when I go into a project, my rate reflects room to negotiate. I don't fear giving out my rock bottom rate as a tool that they can use against me based on the fact that they are receiving pressure for my time from other clientele. Having the ability to walk away from the table is the most powerful tool in ones arsenal when it comes to sitting at the negotiation table.

I believe in fairness, and I believe in making my clients comfortable with the value I provide for their dollar. I love negotiating, because it allows me to show my clients the value they are getting for their money and it allows me to make them feel like they have walked away with a deal. Both are psychologically important factors to creating happy customers.

Re:If people tried to pay for other services like they try t... by angrycoder on Tuesday December 14, 2010 @11:33PM (#2007068)
>Imagine if you were buying a hamburger and they told you that because they burned the first one you're going to have to pay double.

In my experience... The client orders a hamburger. You give them a hamburger. The client really wanted a hotdog and expects you to eat the cost of the hamburger.

Not a big deal in the real world, except in this example hamburgers cost tens of thousands of dollars.

Re:If people tried to pay for other services like they try t... by noonespecial on Wednesday December 15, 2010 @12:39AM (#2007191)
That or they force you to agree to a spec that absolutely will produce a burned hamburger, then refuse to accept it because its burned. Both you and the burger end up burned.