OK, I'd like to note that it's also the past -- CGI was (and in some dark corners still is) a thing.
> Every single person whose product is not Internet infrastructure, that wrote or configured their own unnecessary custom LXC or Docker and VM environment because 'Docker changes everything'.
Yeah but those people now have way easier to run local environments?
> If a company's product is machine learning for detecting cancer and their ops person has a custom Docker/kubernetes environment they're misusing their employer for their own technical interest
???? If your company's product is machine learning, and developers who must work on that product need to set up their environment on their local machines, docker is easier to get started with than VMs, runs faster, consumes less resources. While it might be arguable that it's easier, there are literal money savings to be had by running a docker container instead of a full VM.
Kubernetes has much more complexity and many more tradeoffs involved so I can see that being a much heavier decision.
What you're saying is that overzealous ops people who are looking to pad their own resumes should not be allowed to run amuck, and I agree with that, but docker is not the poster boy for engineering largess -- and I'd argue it never was. Companies and research groups/smaller distributions have been using containerization very productively for a long time.
Yep. Tech does that - think about centralisation / distribution every few years, maybe it'll cycle back to people caring about their own containment tech in future. But not right now.
> Yeah but those people now have way easier to run local environments?
OK, so they wasted their time on their awful custom Docker/k8s thing that runs on top of EC2 anyway, and they have a slightly better way to spin up dev environments?
The rest of the conversation is about dev environments, bare metal, VMs and containers all have their place and I mostly agree with you (obviously containers are only useful when there's a Linux kernel on that desktop, Windows and Mac are bare metal or virtualising for the most part).
> What you're saying is that overzealous ops people who are looking to pad their own resumes should not be allowed to run amuck, and I agree with that, but docker is not the poster boy for engineering largess -- and I'd argue it never was.
You understand my point perfectly. I believe that docker is precisely the poster boy for engineering largess, but this is based on my own experiences (talking to a lot of young engineers in the startup world who love wasting investor money on ops) and it seems reasonable that you have had different experiences.
I think we have a good understanding of where we each come from and can end it here. Thanks for being civil.
Indeed. And since we're not building our own cloud environment, because that's a waste of resources for most companies, we will share an environment with possibly malicious code so therefore need isolation.
> unless you mean that the future is everyone just deploying functions for their applications?
Yes, that is exactly what I mean.
> You know serverless runs on MicroVMs right?
Yes, that's why I mentioned them
> and most of the time it's actually containers in MicroVMs?
I doubt this - AWSs performance documentation focuses on MicroVMs as an alternative to containers, not an addition. Which makes sense as containers do less than MicroVMs.
But hey, even if the AWS MicroVM documentation is wrong, it doesn't matter. I am not building a cloud platform. I do not care.
You're right about spin up time. Open a socket and let your apps terminate with it open for a greater chance of reuse. As a FaaS user that's your entire concern with your execution environment.
> 99% of people aren't building their own cloud platform, so they don't need the full isolation of VMs
All cloud environments must provide isolation between customers, hence VMs / MicroVMs. Customers adding docker on top of that add a huge administrative overhead that duplicates the features of their cloud provider for littl benefit,
> Is there anyone that spent 2015 really getting into Docker and isn't better for it now?
Every single person whose product is not Internet infrastructure, that wrote or configured their own unnecessary custom LXC or Docker and VM environment because 'Docker changes everything'.
If a company's product is machine learning for detecting cancer and their ops person has a custom Docker/kubernetes environment they're misusing their employer for their own technical interest
>2015 is late for realizing containerization is a good thing, not early.
It is indeed. It's just that then Docker hype was at its maximum.