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Re:Exponential Economist Meets Finite Physicist (2012) by jbay808 on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @11:10PM (#20048024)
I'm not sure this is quite a takedown of the author's point. In fact, I'm surprised at how many people on HN seem to be misunderstanding this.

The author is saying that physics puts a fairly solid cap on the amount of power we can produce on earth. That's the basic point.

What does a finite energy-consuming, exponentially growing economy look like?

If we accept that all economic transactions consume some energy, and the economy is growing (so the number or the value of economic transactions is increasing), then once we've hit our physical constraint on power generation, how does growth continue? Only if the energy required per unit of transaction-value continually decreases. So the price of energy must continue to drop, measured by the relative to the value it provides.

The author then points out that this is a contradiction because the price of energy would have to rise, and therefore that the problem is in the assumption of continuing exponential growth.

Re:Exponential Economist Meets Finite Physicist (2012) by paraschopra on Thursday May 30, 2019 @06:39AM (#20049863)
One of the points that the author misses this post (but addresses in other places) actually the cost of dealing with waste and entropy.

Even if energy becomes incredibly cheap, there's a certain cost to dealing with waste that for now we haven't baked into economic models (because we could simply throw it away). If energy usage, no matter how cheap, keeps on growing, waste will also keep on growing.

Re:Exponential Economist Meets Finite Physicist (2012) by jeremysalwen on Wednesday June 05, 2019 @12:13AM (#20101416)
Again, we already have experience with a finite labor-consuming exponentially growing economy looks like. I don't know how this comment is a rebuttal, since it doesn't address any of the points I made.

Especially since it repeats a line of reasoning, whose premises clearly apply to labor, but whose conclusions are clearly incorrect in the case of labor.

"So the price of energy must continue to drop" simply does not logically entail from the preceding premises.

Re:Exponential Economist Meets Finite Physicist (2012) by scatters on Thursday May 30, 2019 @05:02AM (#20049521)
The price of energy and the energy intensity of an economy are not the same thing. This is because the price of energy is the cost at the margin: the cost of producing one additional unit of energy. Since a rational economy exploits cheap sources of energy first, this price is necessarily no less than the cost of production of each unit of energy actually consumed. So there is no contradiction.
Re:Exponential Economist Meets Finite Physicist (2012) by cinquemb on Thursday May 30, 2019 @12:00AM (#20048251)
>then once we've hit our physical constraint on power generation

Are we supposed to accept this? Because I do not. I think the way that we allocate resources towards energy collection/generation/consumption is a bigger constraint than what physics can currently allow.

Re:Exponential Economist Meets Finite Physicist (2012) by stouset on Thursday May 30, 2019 @02:30AM (#20048891)
This is covered in an earlier post of his. At current growth rates, we’ll start noticeably heating the Earth in only a few hundred years. Not from the greenhouse effect, but from literally saturating the Earth’s capacity to radiate excess energy as heat into space.

This is a raw physical limitation. How we use and how we generate the energy are irrelevant details. The only thing that matters is Earth’s ambient temperature, the additional wattage being used planetwide, and the Earth’s radius. Past a certain point, Earth’s equilibrium temperature will rise well past current levels, and rapidly.

Re:Exponential Economist Meets Finite Physicist (2012) by cinquemb on Thursday May 30, 2019 @02:34AM (#20048911)
> How we use and how we generate the energy are irrelevant details.

Just as irrelevant as assuming the basis behind current growth rates where it is impossible to mitigate agaisnt "literally saturating the Earth’s capacity to radiate excess energy as heat into space".

All of this is based on assumptions. You can't just accept one set of assumptions that underlie a model and throw out others that could refute it (well one could, but it isn't intellectually honest).

Re:Exponential Economist Meets Finite Physicist (2012) by mnl on Thursday May 30, 2019 @03:40AM (#20049150)
That's the great thing about thermodynamics, you can determine bounds for a few magnitudes in a physical system ignoring all the details about its evolution.

For instance you can't disrupt the 2nd law, so at some point it's actually true that it is impossible to mitigate overheating and you won't be able to improve Stefan-Boltzmann law (except for increasing our emissivity, at night I'd guess). You can try to play with mass transfer but more thermal escape is not a good idea and a heat exchanger with extraterrestrial masses won't work.

I know it's hard to take and that physicists sound arrogant when they do this, but that's how it is.

Re:Exponential Economist Meets Finite Physicist (2012) by cinquemb on Thursday May 30, 2019 @03:45AM (#20049175)
"Wavelength- and subwavelength-scale particles,[1] metamaterials,[2] and other nanostructures are not subject to ray-optical limits and may be designed to exceed the Stefan–Boltzmann law."
Re:Exponential Economist Meets Finite Physicist (2012) by BlueTemplar on Thursday May 30, 2019 @07:28AM (#20050099)
That's interesting - are they more efficient at getting rid of entropy ? (And what would be the new limits? If they only give, for instance, a single doubling worth, that won't buy us much more time...)
Re:Exponential Economist Meets Finite Physicist (2012) by cinquemb on Thursday May 30, 2019 @07:55AM (#20050246)
This was my prof at the time who introduced me to this stuff he was working on[0], you can read more about his work on their site if you are interested.

[0] http://www.zia-lab.com/

Re:Exponential Economist Meets Finite Physicist (2012) by mnl on Thursday May 30, 2019 @03:47AM (#20049186)
Oh well, if you come up with magic materials you can do anything, of course.
Re:Exponential Economist Meets Finite Physicist (2012) by cinquemb on Thursday May 30, 2019 @03:50AM (#20049200)
Its magic when you say embed Au angsrtom scale layering in an Si structure in order to control the wave plane? Any decent E&M research lab can pull out many examples of magic then…
Re:Exponential Economist Meets Finite Physicist (2012) by mnl on Thursday May 30, 2019 @04:28AM (#20049360)
I still don't get why people do this. You can't use snippets of Wikipedia to make a point you don't understand.

We're talking about macroscopic systems here. The laws of thermodynamics depend on the law of large numbers (if you take the stat mech route), they can be considered laws about statistical averages. It doesn't matter that somebody in nanowhatever claims a deviation from the macroscopic behaviour, that's their job. You still have a macroscopic Earth. An Earth brimming with grey goo would still obey the laws of thermodynamics.

Re:Exponential Economist Meets Finite Physicist (2012) by cinquemb on Thursday May 30, 2019 @05:15AM (#20049554)
> I still don't get why people do this. You can't use snippets of Wikipedia to make a point you don't understand.

I referenced wikipedia and cited an example of such from my experience in physics lab in college nearly a decade ago… I don't get why people try to use some "law" built upon a particular set assumptions that work on a particular set of circumstances expect their leaky abstractions on top of it to govern everything that could ever be possible…

>The laws of thermodynamics depend on the law of large numbers (if you take the stat mech route), they can be considered laws about statistical averages.

On systems operating under certain assumptions… just like navier-stokes predicting singularities from a specific set of IC's in theory that don't happen in real life from said IC's, which have to be handled with a bunch of corrections and adjustments that are more accurate… we're still working out the math as to why that is…

Re:Exponential Economist Meets Finite Physicist (2012) by mnl on Thursday May 30, 2019 @06:02AM (#20049729)
You're mixing up laws with models.

Conservation of momentum is a physical law, that is, we're not making that up, we always see it. The Navier-Stokes equation is a continuum mechanics model of fluids with interesting mathematics, but it's not fundamental, it relies on conservation of momentum and additional reasonable assumptions about the fluid, in the same way that for instance the van der Waals equation is reasonable but it's not a law, you find deviations and there are better models.

As far as we can tell the laws of thermodynamics are laws indeed, that's why no one is proposing perpetual motion machines of the second kind any more.

Re:Exponential Economist Meets Finite Physicist (2012) by cinquemb on Thursday May 30, 2019 @06:16AM (#20049779)
The law I was referring to in this case was Stefan–Boltzmann law (heavily reliant upon assumptions on a given black body that break down under certain circumstances, that people like to hand wave away because they haven't had to deal with the complexities of said circumstances before), which may as well as be a model as far as I'm concerned.
Re:Exponential Economist Meets Finite Physicist (2012) by mnl on Thursday May 30, 2019 @06:45AM (#20049891)
No, it isn't, it's what you get after integrating to all frequencies the Planck distribution for the radiation of a black body in thermodynamic equilibrium, which if you can get a sufficiently black one, you can check out it matches perfectly. I mean perfectly, that's what remote sensing satellites start with for determining surface temperature, after convenient linearization and modeling emissivity. That's what we see in the CMB, again perfectly. It's like this, I'm sorry.

(Look at the CMB spectrum —and refs therein—: https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Cmbr.svg)

Re:Exponential Economist Meets Finite Physicist (2012) by cinquemb on Thursday May 30, 2019 @07:15AM (#20050035)
And then take those same sensors and apply that to the said materials I mentioned above, above and it breaks down…

"Oh but we haven't observed it in the cosmos from our cherry picked backtested 'sufficiently black' ones so it doesn't matter"

Rah rah rah, if you want to continue more just, email me cinque [underscore] mcfarlane - blake [ - a - t] brown [- d - o -t] edu