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Re:Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration by GreaterFool on Wednesday May 22, 2019 @11:41PM (#19988199)
> but it’s no longer quite right to call it homogeneous

Are you sure? Japan is maybe 99% homogeneous? I live in central Tokyo and I can go on for days and days without seeing a foreigner!

> it will inevitably introduce social strains

Sadly, yes. I've observed this on few occasions.

Re:Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration by chrischen on Thursday May 23, 2019 @02:13AM (#19988957)
If you only consider only white and black people to be foreigners. I'd say that there are a lot of Chinese and various other Asian ethnicities mixed in there that are hard to tell.
Re:Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration by Nadya on Thursday May 23, 2019 @09:50AM (#19991750)
They're only "hard to tell" if you don't spend a lot of time around people of Asian ethnicity. It is very rare I cannot tell a Japanese person from a Chinese person from a Korean person.

Reading comments on this thread below yours, there are a surprisingly high number of people on HN who think all Asians look alike. Spend a few months in an Asian country and white people begin to all look alike while Asians become quite distinct.

Also, it is quite easy to tell most tourists apart from foreign immigrants. The backpacks of gear, maps, constantly getting lost, or participating in things mostly designed for tourism gives it away.

Re:Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration by chrischen on Thursday May 23, 2019 @05:01PM (#19995903)
Well, I am Chinese and people cannot tell me apart from whatever Asian country I happen to be in. In fact, visiting Taiwan, people frequently mistake me for Japanese or Korean even though I don't say a word. And having stayed in Japan for extended periods of time no one has presumed I was Chinese before I opened my mouth.

If you're a tourist, you're very likely to carry certain cultural mannerisms or clothing that give you away, but otherwise stripped down naked there's very small physical differences.

If the foreign Chinese or Korean person has assimilated (learned the language), you would hard pressed to tell.

Masayoshi Son, the richest Japanese person, is ethnically Korean, and he had switched his last name back to his Korean surname so that he could be recognized as a Korean.

Much of what you perceive to be differences in phenotype among Asians are usually geographical or culturally acquired differences. For example many people think that Filipinos must have dark skin, or that if you have fair skin you must come from Japan or South Korea, but in reality that has more to do with how much sun those respective cultures manage to avoid, and skin-care products.

Re:Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration by Nadya on Thursday May 23, 2019 @05:46PM (#19996342)
It seems you misunderstood a bit, which is my fault, so I'll explain.

Facial blindness for racial features occurs when you're not accustomed to having to noticing such features. Most homogeneous regions can readily identify outsiders: they just look different. They're less likely to be able to identify where the outsider is from.

Guessing from facial features, with great but not perfect accuracy, is a skill. Like any skill it needs to be practiced. It is also never 100% accurate but I'm right most of the time.

Korean people have rounder faces and a less distinct chin than Japanese people. Chinese people are a bit in-between the two in terms of head/face shape. Koreans tend to have smaller noses and less pronounced cheek bones. Japanese have thicker eyebrows. The "double eyelid" is more common and prominent in China/Japan than Korea. China varies a bit more by region - but the people from Guangdong look different from those in Jiangxi or Gansu.

As a rule of thumb the north-south effect applies to Asian just like it applies to most of Europe: people in the northern regions are on average taller with lighter skin than people in the southern regions.

It also isn't just East Asia. Most people have difficulty telling African people apart because it isn't a skill most people need to practice. In East Africa, (eg. Uganda, Kenya, and Somalia) people tend to have larger foreheads (or more accurately: higher hairlines) than in other African countries. I actually learned a lot of this from watching a linguist, who often goes out to speak with people in public [0]. To approach and open a discussion he often has to guess their ethnicity in order to guess which language he should speak. He does so with a very high accuracy, including regional differences for Chinese people (he speaks Mandarin and Cantonese and from what I remember a few more regional dialects). He often does this without ever hearing the other person speak first, although he does sometimes overhear them speaking and butts in to chat.

>If the foreign Chinese or Korean person has assimilated (learned the language), you would hard pressed to tell.

I attend a Japanese class (in the US) with Chinese, Korean, Filipino, and Japanese students many of whom speak the language fluently. I did not have any trouble guessing except for one man who was half Korean-half Japanese. Now this isn't a topic I always bring up and it's not like I go around trying to guess peoples' ethnicity, but among friends who are learning a language together it usually comes up at some point.

Again, to reiterate: It is never 100% accurate. People are of mixed races all over the world, very few people are completely homogeneous. Recessive traits can appear, maybe they were raised in the South but by Northern parents. Maybe they're just a tall shut-in. Maybe they have a lot of makeup on. Maybe their diet was very different growing up. There's a lot more that goes into looks than just genes.

Just because most people can't play a 7-string guitar doesn't make it impossible to play a 7-string guitar.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/user/laoshu505000/videos

Re:Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration by kalleboo on Thursday May 23, 2019 @01:41AM (#19988823)
> I live in central Tokyo and I can go on for days and days without seeing a foreigner!

I live in Kagoshima which has one of the lowest rates of foreigners in the country and nearly every time I go into the city centre I spot a foreigner. My daughter's (standard) daycare has at least 2 other foreign kids. Convenience stores have Chinese students working part time.

99% homogeneous still sounds about right though.

Re:Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration by jkachmar on Thursday May 23, 2019 @12:02AM (#19988328)
> I live in central Tokyo and I can go on for days and days without seeing a foreigner!

I’m quite surprised to hear this actually. I visited Japan recently and I consistently saw other foreigners around the center of Tokyo.

I think the only time I _didn’t_ see any other foreigners was when I was out in Ōtsu, but that’s sort of out there for most visitors anyway.

EDIT: I should add that I tried to make a point of walking around a bit, so I don’t think I was just taking the subway to commonly visited spots.

Re:Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration by coldtea on Thursday May 23, 2019 @03:52AM (#19989491)
>I’m quite surprised to hear this actually. I visited Japan recently and I consistently saw other foreigners around the center of Tokyo

Of course, but those were mostly tourists?

Re:Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration by sanxiyn on Thursday May 23, 2019 @12:40AM (#19988539)
How can you know? Can you reliably identify Koreans from Japanese?
Re:Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration by coldtea on Thursday May 23, 2019 @03:52AM (#19989498)
It's not very difficult if you've lived in either place...

(And they don't exactly have a mutual love for each other)

Re:Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration by sanxiyn on Thursday May 23, 2019 @04:30AM (#19989680)
I am a Korean (lived in Korea for >30 years) and I think it is difficult...
Re:Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration by CuriouslyC on Thursday May 23, 2019 @08:01AM (#19990855)
The main thing I notice is that Koreans have slightly rounder faces, and smoother features. Koreans also tend to be slightly taller and more robust physically.

You are right though, the occasional Japanese person is going to be very hard to spot since they usually fall within the range of Korean diversity.

Re:Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration by burfog on Thursday May 23, 2019 @05:17AM (#19989928)
You need to check the hands.

Korea is the country that breaks hand scanners. By that I means the sort of biometric measurement devices used for secure entry to doors. Korean hands are pretty much identical.

Re:Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration by glandium on Thursday May 23, 2019 @09:30AM (#19991562)
It's both difficult and not. It depends on the persons. There are many Koreans that are easily identifiable as Korean, and many Japanese easily identifiable as Japanese. And there are some that are hard to tell apart.
Re:Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration by gaspoweredcat on Thursday May 23, 2019 @04:16AM (#19989619)
this is really not difficult as a general rule
Re:Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration by Tor3 on Thursday May 23, 2019 @07:38AM (#19990724)
Even my wife (Japanese) has problems identifying non-Japanese Asians. On the other hand I think I'm better at it (but it may be that I'm not as good as I think).
Re:Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration by eecsninja on Thursday May 23, 2019 @12:18AM (#19988420)
Maybe many people you see are Asian foreigners (Chinese, Korean, Filipinos, etc) and you just don't realize it. I hear Chinese spoken on the streets all the time.
Re:Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration by coldtea on Thursday May 23, 2019 @03:55AM (#19989509)
Chinese and Fiipinos don't look much like Japanese if you're not totally alien to asians and consider them all the same. And even Koreans have some different characteristics, which one can tell for the most part.
Re:Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration by world32 on Friday May 24, 2019 @06:10AM (#20000035)
Can we please stop with the "I see lots of foreigners", "I don't see any foreigners" anecdotes!? Seriously, I expected better from HN posters. From this article we can see that there are 2.73 million foreigners in Japan:

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2019/03/22/national/number...

And with a population of 126.8 million people that means that 2% of the population are foreign.

Re:Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration by tmm84 on Wednesday May 22, 2019 @11:48PM (#19988251)
I work in Akihabara. I see foreigners everyday. Even in Minato-ku I see plenty of non-Japanese people running around.
Re:Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration by GreaterFool on Thursday May 23, 2019 @12:02AM (#19988321)
Add Shibuya (mainly around the station) and Shinjuku and you basically covered all foreigner hotspots! Those are the most non-representative areas!

But go to Shimokitezawa or Gakuendaigaku or anywhere off the beaten path and foreigners will be few and far between.

Re:Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration by wiennat on Thursday May 23, 2019 @12:37AM (#19988525)
Shimokitazawa still have a lot of foreigners. It is surrounded by universities including Todai.
Re:Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration by chasontherobot on Thursday May 23, 2019 @02:13AM (#19988961)
Both of those places have a TON of foreigners, and neither one of them are central Tokyo either :p
Re:Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration by Tor3 on Thursday May 23, 2019 @07:40AM (#19990735)
I've been to places with thousands of Japanese (and the occasional Korean, which can be difficult to notice) and then just me. But on the other hand I've never, not once, been made to feel like an outsider.
Re:Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration by exhaze on Thursday May 23, 2019 @12:01AM (#19988317)
Even? Minato-ku has the highest density of foreigners of all the wards, something like 20% of the population.
Re:Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration by glandium on Thursday May 23, 2019 @09:32AM (#19991582)
Well, those are quite touristy...
Re:Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration by gaspoweredcat on Thursday May 23, 2019 @04:14AM (#19989616)
really? when i was in tokyo/kyoto/osaka foreigners were everywhere although ill admit in my more recent trips it seemed to be less westerners and more chinese tourists, however when i went further north to sendai and aomori i didnt see a single other foreigner