Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

Re:Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own d... by magduf on Wednesday May 22, 2019 @12:26PM (#19982814)

The problem with Southwest is that their entire fleet is 737s. So the 737MAX was a big thing for them: they could stick with that same crappy old airframe, but get better fuel economy, and not have to retrain pilots. They don't want to switch to Airbus because that means they can't standardize on a single model and manufacturer, and they'd have to retrain so many pilots too.

[ Parent | on HN ]

Re:Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own d... by snarf21 on Wednesday May 22, 2019 @03:32PM (#19984635)

I agree but isn't there enough evidence now for Southwest to sue Boeing to make them pay for all the training (after there is a real fix)?

[ Parent | on HN ]

Re:Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own d... by vkou on Wednesday May 22, 2019 @04:35PM (#19985175)

Generally speaking:

1. These kinds of contracts don't come with provisions for compensation for every foreseeable contingency.

2. You can sue anyone for anything in America. But it's going to cost you.

3. You can also make future purchases conditional on how these contingencies were handled in the past.

So, it's likely that a lot of negotiation between Southwest and Boeing will happen. Possibly even some arbitration. If the two firms ever end up in court over this, that would indicate a colossal failure in all the processes that lead up to that moment. (As litigation is incredibly expensive.)

[ Parent | on HN ]

Re:Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own d... by magduf on Thursday May 23, 2019 @12:34PM (#19993245)

Well I'm hoping it'll go to massive litigation between many different parties and Boeing, and Boeing goes bankrupt. They can't be trusted ever again.

[ Parent | on HN ]

Re:Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own d... by village-idiot on Wednesday May 22, 2019 @01:13PM (#19983225)

They’re probably stuck retraining their pilots one way or the other at this point, but I agree they’re in quite the pickle now.

[ Parent | on HN ]

Re:Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own d... by oreo83 on Wednesday May 22, 2019 @05:29PM (#19985729)

Southwest only has 34 737MAX planes in their fleet of 750 737s.

"crappy old airframe"

It's actually an incredible good design with a proven history. What exactly makes you think its such a "crappy" design?

[ Parent | on HN ]

Re:Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own d... by kalleboo on Wednesday May 22, 2019 @08:35PM (#19987164)

It's a crappy old airframe because it's designed specifically to be low down to accommodate airstairs, meaning it won't fit modern large engines. It's anachronistic design and has to make tradeoffs in order to stay relevant (even before the MAX, the NG had those weird squished engine nacelles).

[ Parent | on HN ]

Re:Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own d... by oreo83 on Thursday May 23, 2019 @09:36AM (#19991631)

Doesn't mean it a bad airframe...

[ Parent | on HN ]

Re:Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own d... by magduf on Thursday May 23, 2019 @12:35PM (#19993252)

If you have to do crazy workarounds to make a design stay relevant and usable in modern times, then it is by definition a bad design.

[ Parent | on HN ]

Re:Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own d... by oreo83 on Thursday May 23, 2019 @02:47PM (#19994649)

The crazy workarounds are maybe bad designs, but an airframe design that's still in demand after 50 years and been built 10,000+ times isn't a crappy design.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone familiar with aviation agree that the 737 is a poorly designed airframe...

[ Parent | on HN ]

Re:Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own d... by magduf on Thursday May 23, 2019 @03:10PM (#19994923)

It's only in demand because of inertia. This is like claiming that Windows is great for no other reason than because so many people use it, or that the US government is a great idea just because it hasn't collapsed yet.

If you think it's so great, then why don't you explain why you can't put today's large high-bypass turbofan engines on it in the normal position without them hitting the runway? How exactly is that a "great design"? It may have been a great design in 1967, but it isn't now, just like a 1967 Mustang chassis may have been OK then, but is totally inadequate now.

[ Parent | on HN ]

Re:Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own d... by oreo83 on Thursday May 23, 2019 @04:36PM (#19995634)

I think you misunderstanding what an 'airframe' is...

[ Parent | on HN ]

Re:Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own d... by magduf on Friday May 24, 2019 @10:55AM (#20002176)

No, I think you are. The 737's airframe includes landing gear designed for using ladders instead of jetways, and wings that are thus too low to the ground, which is why they placed the new nacelles the way they did, causing this problem in the first place.

[ Parent | on HN ]