A church, or other "good community" doesn't make people better, this is an individual's decision. Of course, it attempts to make good in the world, but the people inside this community make the decision to be good or bad on their own.

I say this to protect churches and other good communities.

> A church, or other "good community" doesn't make people better, this is an individual's decision.

but the churches we are talking about are religious organisations that claim a monopoly on morality.

The whole (claimed) point of their existence is to preach, convert and forge people into better, more virtuous versions of themselves.

If it is failing even in that one simple premise, then what good is it?

Again, they can preach all they want and try to convert, but it's up to the individual. We can tell all the people we want to be good people, but its ultimately their decision.

So, to that end, let's ask ourselves - why don't we find churches interesting? Are they boring, are they full of ceremony? What's the point, we might ask? Do we have other "better" things to do? Do we not trust they are authority on morals, or do we not care about becoming more virtuous?