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Re:Security Update by thaumasiotes on Friday May 17, 2019 @04:09AM (#19937382)
A rainbow table is the exact attack I'm saying is still infeasible. ("Strong passwords are still just as strong.") It only works by assuming the victim uses one of a known set of weak, easy-to-guess passwords. If they don't, their hashed password is very unlikely to be in the rainbow table at all, because there's just too much hash space. The calculation in my original comment gives the approximate number of hashes necessary to fill a complete md5 rainbow table, on the assumption that you get zero collisions in the process of filling it in. (That is, every time you hash something, you get a hash you've never seen before, allowing you to add new information to the table.) That assumption is not at all realistic. By the time you've filled in half of the space, unless you can choose them cleverly to avoid collisions, half of the strings you hash should be wasted effort.

In a single-target attack, I don't really see the concept of "pre-computation to trade space for time". That hurts you by taking a lot of space, but it doesn't gain you any time, because you spent at least the required amount of time, but almost certainly more, doing the pre-computing. If you can buy someone else's pre-computed rainbow table, then sure, that's an advantage for you. But the adversary actually doing the pre-computing is doing it in order to crack many people's passwords all at once ("this table will let you identify _everyone_ whose password is qwe123"), which is the scenario I described earlier.

(At this point I feel I should clarify that "some people use the same passwords" is a real threat and a real reason to avoid md5. I just don't think the comment I responded to, "It is a question of when not if a hash table is fully cracked", was made in good faith or informed by... anything. To fully crack md5 in that way, you'd need an easily-computed function that inverts it. No amount of hashing speed is ever going to get you there.)

Re:Security Update by tialaramex on Friday May 17, 2019 @05:46AM (#19937909)
> In a single-target attack, I don't really see the concept of "pre-computation to trade space for time"

In a single-target attack the reason you'd do this is because you expect your target to react in a timely fashion to discovery of some other part of your attack by changing passwords.

e.g. maybe you're sure you can break in to get hashes, but you will trigger a reactive IDS. You figure you have some period of time after that trigger before your target is alerted and changes their password.

Time-space tradeoff lets you avoid doing all the work against the clock _after_ the IDS triggers, instead you can do it all _before_ you have the hashes, and only pull the trigger and set off the alarms when you're ready to quickly break the hash, get in and do whatever your actual attack requires.

It's not a _common_ scenario, but it's important to remember it exists in designing general purpose components like password hashes.