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Re:Two senators say a $5B fine isn’t enough to punish Facebook by adventured on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @05:53PM (#19853799)
> I mean first fines pretty much have to scale with total revenue to deter behavior

That's only an effective approach if your goal is to cripple many of the companies that you fine. Almost no large companies on the planet have the extreme profit margins of Facebook. Alternatively to avoid that kind of damage you have to adjust the percentage scale to each individual company's profit margins (25% revenue fine for Facebook, N% for a retailer with microscopic 3% profit margins), which instantly makes the revenue approach absurd.

Slap 3M, Walmart, Caterpillar or Costco with the equivalent of a ~25% quarterly revenue fine, and you'll do severe damage to the company. A 25% quarterly fine on Walmart's revenue would nearly bankrupt them. As opposed to Facebook which has profit margins 15-20x greater than eg Costco and can more or less absorb the fine directly out of its quarterly profit.

I don't see the argument behind using fines as a means to intentionally severely damage companies, which is what huge revenue-based fines accomplish.

Re:Two senators say a $5B fine isn’t enough to punish Facebook by FridgeSeal on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @06:38PM (#19854084)
> That's only an effective approach if your goal is to cripple many of the companies that you fine.

Don’t screw up egregiously and repeatedly and you won’t get burnt. ¯\_(ツ)\_/¯

Taking the gently-gently approach with fining companies has totally failed: they simply incorporate the cost into their margins and continue on like nothing actually happened; so yes, it is time to start burning companies that don’t do the right thing.

Maybe some will fail as a result, that’s ok: simply existing is not carte balnche permission to continue existing. At least the new gap in the market will probably make room for a new company that will play by the rules.

Re:Two senators say a $5B fine isn’t enough to punish Facebook by tptacek on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @07:45PM (#19854544)
Nobody has taken a "gently-gently" approach here. $5B is a record-setting fine, the largest in the FTC's history I believe, and situated nicely in the middle of the fines the big banks got for the 2008 crisis. I reject the premise that people are suggesting we have to be careful not to kill Facebook; that's not what's being said. What's being said is that if you're going to try to cripple Facebook, you have to have a rational basis in law for doing so.
Re:Two senators say a $5B fine isn’t enough to punish Facebook by stevenjohns on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @06:22PM (#19853992)
> That's only an effective approach if your goal is to cripple many of the companies that you fine

Yes, some companies should be crippled. With criminal sentencing, the first goal is to isolate that person from society as a punishment with reform being a second consideration. With criminals, judges or magistrates would level higher-end sentences as an example and you won't hear many people arguing against a criminal's 15 year sentence by saying it would cripple their economic output.

Society owes nothing to corporations and this "too big to fail" mentality creates a system where corporations are above ethics.

Seeing Facebook fined into to a point where they are seriously crippled as a company will make a lot of other companies change their tune, internationally, for the better.

Re:Two senators say a $5B fine isn’t enough to punish Facebook by tptacek on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @07:40PM (#19854508)
TBTF has nothing to do with this. What's being proposed is basically the exact opposite of TBTF --- that Facebook is too big not to fine unusually.

If you believe there should be a notion of SITCs --- Systemically Important Tech Companies --- lobby to pass that law in such a way that it survives judicial review. But it can't simply be up to the FTC to make that rule up.

Re:Two senators say a $5B fine isn’t enough to punish Facebook by int_19h on Wednesday May 08, 2019 @11:20PM (#19865083)
> With criminal sentencing, the first goal is to isolate that person from society as a punishment with reform being a second consideration

A lot of people would argue that this is the root of most problems in our justice system.

Re:Two senators say a $5B fine isn’t enough to punish Facebook by Avshalom on Tuesday May 07, 2019 @06:17PM (#19853957)
Fair enough I used 'total revenue' instead of total profit to make it clear which part of the paragraph is was arguing with. However it's not profit margin but overall profit: Walmart might have thin margins but they still made ~20B in profit: they too could absorb a $5B fine. Costco could eat a billion.

But purposely damaging a company is exactly what a fine is for. It's punishment and deterrent.

Re:Two senators say a $5B fine isn’t enough to punish Facebook by kilotaras on Wednesday May 08, 2019 @06:19AM (#19857476)
We use percent of person's total life revenue (jail time) for non-violent crimes (theft, fraud, etc.) all the time. It's not clear why corporations should get a pass.