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Re:Amazon S3 will no longer support path-style API requests by cortesoft on Friday May 03, 2019 @07:06PM (#19823050)
Not the commenter, but I think the point is that there are simply too many ways to bypass protections. If you want someone to be able to view data, it is impossible to prevent them from exfiltrating it. In many ways it is similar to the analog hole problem with DRM.

You can make it harder to do on accident, or to prevent someone from doing it for convenience (e.g. someone copying data to an insecure location to have easier access to do their job), but you can't stop a malicious actor from getting the data.

They could tunnel over DNS, they could use a camera phone and record the data on the screen, etc. The possibilities are endless.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analog_hole

Re:Amazon S3 will no longer support path-style API requests by dragonwriter on Friday May 03, 2019 @07:59PM (#19823307)
> You can make it harder to do on accident

That's a major point of exfiltration prevention, both because accidents are a real problem and because reducing the opportunity for accidents makes it easier to establish that intentional exfiltration is intentional, which makes the ability to impose serious consequences for it greater (especially against privilege insiders with key contractual benefits that can only be taken away for cause.)

Technical safeguards aren't standalone, they integrate with social safeguards.

Re:Amazon S3 will no longer support path-style API requests by lixtra on Saturday May 04, 2019 @08:37AM (#19826046)
>> You can make it harder to do on accident >That's a major point of exfiltration prevention

But that’s not how it is advertised. Usually they claim is to catch hackers and mal intending employees.

Re:Amazon S3 will no longer support path-style API requests by TeMPOraL on Saturday May 04, 2019 @02:25PM (#19828241)
Advertising is 100% bullshit, both in this space and elsewhere. I'm not sure why even well-paid people in positions of corporate power don't seem to get it. It's similar to Gell-Mann amnesia.
Re:Amazon S3 will no longer support path-style API requests by yoz on Friday May 03, 2019 @08:11PM (#19823370)
> You can make it harder to do on accident, or to prevent someone from doing it for convenience

Why are you discounting these as valuable use cases?

In my experience, they're far more common than the determinedly-malicious actor. And they're far, FAR more common than the malicious actor who also (a) knows that the exfil monitor is there, and (b) has the technical prowess to circumvent it. (The analog hole is only _trivially_ usable for certain kinds of data.)

(I am continually frustrated by the number of people who claim that protection is worthless if it's potentially circumventable. In most situations, covering 90% of attacks is still worthwhile.)

Re:Amazon S3 will no longer support path-style API requests by jacobr1 on Friday May 03, 2019 @09:05PM (#19823604)
I agree. Locking my front door is trivially circumventable. It is pretty easy to pick up a rock and break a window. Or use a heavy instrument to break down the door. Or heck, a car could just go crashing through the wall. But that lock is a pretty good deterrent from casual abuse. It requires crossing a psychological barrier into the explicitly illegal and malicious realm.
Re:Amazon S3 will no longer support path-style API requests by ricardobeat on Saturday May 04, 2019 @08:14AM (#19825959)
That's a sensible analogy on the surface, but the difference is that having to lock the door doesn't

- end up forcing you to lock it from the inside, and then crawl out the window

- have your friend who is visiting request a door-opening-token 24hr in advance through a JIRA ticket

- cause the power to go out once it's locked, also for security reasons

- force you to replace the keys with 'special' plastic ones from a new third-party vendor

- leave you stranded outside for a few hours because the door-opening system is having an outage

Those are the kind of trade-offs that will be made, not simply the act of locking the door.

Re:Amazon S3 will no longer support path-style API requests by TeMPOraL on Saturday May 04, 2019 @02:28PM (#19828261)
It's also the reason why people mail sensitive data to their private mailboxes and that no matter how hard some companies try, they can't make their employees stop using Excel as their primary work tool.

'arcbyte over at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19827012 does have a point - a lot of potential exfil risk is caused by companies doing their best to make it as difficult as possible for their employees to do their jobs.

Re:Amazon S3 will no longer support path-style API requests by ethbro on Friday May 03, 2019 @08:26PM (#19823429)
> I am continually frustrated by the number of people who claim that protection is worthless if it's potentially circumventable. In most situations, covering 90% of attacks is still worthwhile

People are saying that because it's misguided and potentially harmful.

Doing so is security theater, where the solution is scoped down to something incomplete but easier, and then everyone walks away happy they solved 90% of the smaller problem they chose to attempt.

Particularly with things like data exfiltration, this is potentially harmful because then you've organizationally blinded yourself.

Nobody wants to poke holes in their own solution, and so they stop looking.

But, hey, we're catching the odd employee accidentally sharing confidential documents via OneDrive.

Fast forward a year, and an entire DB gets transferred out via an unknown vector, nobody finds out about it for a couple months, and it's all "Oh! How did this happen? We had monitoring in place."

Go big, or run the risk of putting blinders on yourself.

Re:Amazon S3 will no longer support path-style API requests by fencepost on Friday May 03, 2019 @08:43PM (#19823500)
The way I'm reading this, your attitude seems to be "if you can't stop targeted nation state actions you might as well not bother with network security and just run unencrypted wifi everywhere."

Network security is a balancing act between prevention, detection, needed user and network capabilities and cost. If I have unlimited money or no limitations on hindering network usage I can make a 100% secure network - it's not even that expensive, just unplug it all.

Re:Amazon S3 will no longer support path-style API requests by hueving on Friday May 03, 2019 @08:38PM (#19823477)
>covering 90% of attacks

It doesn't cover most attacks. That's why it's so misleading. It mainly just protection against incompetent people from accidentally sending out data.

Re:Amazon S3 will no longer support path-style API requests by RhodesianHunter on Friday May 03, 2019 @11:10PM (#19824151)
Which is what like 80% of data leaks?
Re:Amazon S3 will no longer support path-style API requests by smallnamespace on Friday May 03, 2019 @08:32PM (#19823460)
> there are simply too many ways to bypass protections

This is not a good general principle, since it can be easily applied in contexts that (I would predict) many same individuals would vehemently disagree with. For example:

- Personal privacy is pointless, there are simply too many ways for governments/corporations/fellow citizens to find things out about you

- Strong taxation enforcement by governments is pointless, there are simply too many avenues for legal tax avoidance and illegal tax evasion

- Nuclear arms control is pointless, the knowledge of how to make a bomb and enrich uranium is widely available (I mean, if NK could pull it off, how hard could it be?)

Maybe data exfiltration prevention isn't a good policy, but I think you need a more nuanced argument than 'there are ways around it'.

Re:Amazon S3 will no longer support path-style API requests by nine_k on Friday May 03, 2019 @11:20PM (#19824210)
All these things work statistically, preventing a certain part of incidents.

They are not a guarantee that an incident cannot happen, though. They can only lower the rate at which incidents (privacy violations, tax evasion, nuclear proliferation) occur.

Same with exfiltration.

Re:Amazon S3 will no longer support path-style API requests by XorNot on Friday May 03, 2019 @08:07PM (#19823352)
I read a great paper talking about this problem once, which made the point that the only actual measure of data security is the bandwidth of possible side-channels vs useful size of the data.
Re:Amazon S3 will no longer support path-style API requests by muxator on Friday May 03, 2019 @08:44PM (#19823508)
Do you happen to have any pointers about this? I would be very interested.
Re:Amazon S3 will no longer support path-style API requests by gspetr on Saturday May 04, 2019 @06:50AM (#19825667)
The parent was probably talking about this paper: https://csyhua.github.io/csyhua/hua-ipdps2018.pdf

Here are a few more (somewhat) related to this topic:

1.Joe Grand, “Advanced Hardware Hacking Techniques”, Defcon 12 http://www.grandideastudio.com/files/security/hardware/advan...

2.Josh Jaffe, “Differential Power Analysis”, Summer School on Cryptographic Hardware http://www.dice.ucl.ac.be/crypto/ecrypt-scard/jaffe.pdfhttp:...

3.S. Mangard, E. Oswald, T. Popp, “Power Analysis Attacks -Revealing the Secrets of Smartcards” http://www.dpabook.org/

4.Dan J. Bernstein, ''Cache-timing attacks on AES'', http://cr.yp.to/papers.html#cachetiming, 2005.

5.D. Brumley, D. Boneh, “Remote Timing Attacks are Practical” http://crypto.stanford.edu/~dabo/papers/ssl-timing.pdf

6.P. Kocher, "Design and Validation Strategies for Obtaining Assurance in Countermeasures to Power Analysis and Related Attacks", NIST Physical Security Testing Workshop -Honolulu, Sept. 26, 2005 http://csrc.nist.gov/cryptval/physec/papers/physecpaper09.pd...

7.E. Oswald, K. Schramm, “An Efficient Masking Scheme for AES Software Implementations” www.iaik.tugraz.at/research/sca-lab/publications/pdf/Oswald2006AnEfficientMasking.pdf

8.Cryptography Research, Inc. Patents and Licensing http://www.cryptography.com/technology/dpa/licensing.html

Re:Amazon S3 will no longer support path-style API requests by muxator on Saturday May 04, 2019 @09:40AM (#19826372)
Thank you very much for the material!
Re:Amazon S3 will no longer support path-style API requests by azernik on Friday May 03, 2019 @08:02PM (#19823319)
It's hard to prevent data exfiltration by an attacker with physical access to your premises, but it's much easier to prevent exfiltration (especially of large quantities of data) by compromised devices.