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Re:PDF Is the World's Most Important File Format by svnpenn on Friday May 03, 2019 @01:38PM (#19820462)
PDF isn't and was never meant as a data storage format. It is meant as a presentation format. You write a file in latex or docx then convert to PDF for sharing. This means the recipient only needs a PDF reader, not whatever tools you used to create the file. This is similar to writing a file in C and compiling to an executable. You can distribute the source, but most (outside of programmers) just want the executable so they don't have a to worry about the tooling.
Re:PDF Is the World's Most Important File Format by kodz4 on Friday May 03, 2019 @03:04PM (#19821277)
> outside programmers

This is not true. Ask a Lawyer, Accountant or a Journalist wading through govt pdfs.

The reasons cases and investigations take forever is the time spent manually reassembling related data residing in different orgs. The same data across all orgs will show up as 25 differently structured tables. This is changing slowly but putting public tabular data in pdfs has probably cost the economy billions.

Re:PDF Is the World's Most Important File Format by maxxxxx on Friday May 03, 2019 @03:39PM (#19821565)
“This is changing slowly but the putting public tabular data in pdfs has probably cost the economy billions.”

Or you could says it has created a ton of jobs :)

Re:PDF Is the World's Most Important File Format by maxxxxx on Friday May 03, 2019 @01:44PM (#19820526)
That’s the problem. It was never meant as what it’s used for now. It’s bad for manuals, it’s bad for data, it’s bad for mobile devices, it’s bad for versioning. It’s only good for printing. But somehow it’s used for all of these.
Re:PDF Is the World's Most Important File Format by Spooky23 on Friday May 03, 2019 @02:22PM (#19820915)
Formatting matters in many cases, and PDF respects that better than any other common format.

I have policy and legal documents from 2005 in PDF/A that can be rendered identically in 2019, and likely in 2105. That isn't the case for HTML, Word or almost any non-plaintext format. If for no other reason than the US Federal Courts require use of PDF, the format will exist and be somewhat vibrant for many decades to come.

I can wholeheartedly will agree that Adobe Reader sucks, but the format solves lots of problems that are difficult to solve otherwise.

Re:PDF Is the World's Most Important File Format by ghostly_s on Friday May 03, 2019 @04:51PM (#19822156)
How exactly do you think your HTML files from 2005 would render differently today? Sure, your modern browser engine would probably make slightly different decisions with fonts and margins, but would that negatively impact the usability of a legal document, research paper, etc.? Meanwhile, you would have gotten things like robust search and real compatibility with mobile phones and e-readers for free.

A heavily restricted subset of HTML to replace PDF as the 'archival' format would make the world so much better of a place.

Re:PDF Is the World's Most Important File Format by Spooky23 on Friday May 03, 2019 @09:53PM (#19823789)
Formatting is important — all of the arguments made in favor of HTML can be made for plaintext. If you don’t care about format and want to read the document 30, 50, 100 or more years ago, you should use text.

Will HTML formatting on a 4K display will look the same as an 800x600 monitor?

Will all of the ancient display elements display the same? Will IE4 specific artifacts display?

Search works fine in PDF. Mobile is not optimal, but platforms optimized for mobile require different design considerations. Few webpages look or function identically on mobile.

Re:PDF Is the World's Most Important File Format by ghostly_s on Wednesday May 08, 2019 @11:53AM (#19860046)
How is formatting important though? Semantic formatting, sure, but again, a 20-year-old HTML file still has that preserved. The em-perfect formatting inherent in PDF seems entirely purposeless unless you for some reason need to be able to reproduce a printed copy of the document exactly. Formulas are a special case, but the great majority of documents I see distributed in PDF would be more useful as HTML, and I don't buy the argument that it would risk archivability. At the end of the day, HTML is a plain-text format which is quite human-readable even if all the world's HTML renderers were somehow lost to the ages.

The only use-case I can conceive for perfectly-reproducable layout if you are not a print publisher is in fields where it is convention to reference text by page+paragraph number; in those cases, the page number is actually semantic information so could quite trivially be encoded in the content of the document to maintain that referent.

> Search works fine in PDF.

Search works fine in PDFs that don't use hyphenation or which properly implement it, and when they don't it breaks silently in ways that are potentially disastrous.

> Mobile is not optimal, but platforms optimized for mobile require different design considerations.

And my point about mobile was you don't need to optimize for it.

>Few webpages look or function identically on mobile.

Again, it doesn't need to look identical. That is a falce requirement. There is no value in that. The only web pages that don't function on mobile are ones which have been optimized for desktop. We're not talking about general-purpose web pages here, we're talking about textual documents.

This is not some hypothetical scenario, BTW. The UK has been using HTML over PDF for public-facing documents for a couple years now, it seems to be working out for them[1].

1. https://gds.blog.gov.uk/2018/07/16/why-gov-uk-content-should...

Re:PDF Is the World's Most Important File Format by ezequiel-garzon on Sunday May 12, 2019 @10:05AM (#19891965)
The only web pages that don't function on mobile are ones which have been optimized for desktop.

Although it's rare to find them nowadays, this is false for pages with no CSS at all. By no CSS I mean not even the infamous proprietary viewport meta tag... which is a posteriori being made CSS. Access for instance the basically unstyled page [1] with a $1000+ smartphone of our day... and you're likely to find unreadably small font.

Now, you could argue [1] functions on mobile, but let's agree it's stretching the meaning of that term. But that's not the main point: HTML elements come and go (for instance MENU; find others in [2]), so it's clear that archival reliability is not a big priority.

We all agree that ideally the source should always be made available (mandated if tax payers' money is involved if you ask me), but that doesn't invalidate the value of a universal presentational format.

[1] http://www.qrg.northwestern.edu/papers/files/simhobby-local....

[2] https://meiert.com/en/indices/html-elements/

Re:PDF Is the World's Most Important File Format by rayiner on Friday May 03, 2019 @03:09PM (#19821320)
It’s good for manuals, which often have complex formatting and layout that necessitates precise control. It’s not appreciably worse for mobile devices than the incredibly bloated HTML that you see nowadays. It’s completely orthogonal to versioning, and PDF diff tools are quite competent. It’s not only spectacular for printing, but completely unmatched for paper <-> digital round trips.
Re:PDF Is the World's Most Important File Format by disqard on Friday May 03, 2019 @01:49PM (#19820589)
Good perspective... and it made me think of a parallel with Democracy. Could the atrocity that is pdf be the "least bad" way to do all of the above in one file format?
Re:PDF Is the World's Most Important File Format by maxxxxx on Friday May 03, 2019 @02:26PM (#19820950)
No. It’s the worst bad :). It’s only good for printing.
Re:PDF Is the World's Most Important File Format by redman25 on Friday May 03, 2019 @04:11PM (#19821826)
True, PDFs should probably be thought more of as "image" files than editable documents. As a binary format, you need to use visual tools in order to view them. I have a little experience with this having built a tool to diff them: https://www.parepdf.com.