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Re:Apache loses Java showdown vote to Oracle by loup-vaillant on Tuesday December 07, 2010 @03:59AM (#1978482)
> There isn't really a suitable successor that does what Java really does. It was low-enough level to have decent performance and high enough level to be used to quickly do some complex stuff with some runtime protection.

There was such a successor before Java even existed: ML. It is safer, and current free implementations are at least as fast (and they have a C FFI). The catch is, programmers need to recognize that "OO" is little more than a brand, then see that despite it's "FP" branding, ML implements the underlying principles just as well (if not better).

Re:Apache loses Java showdown vote to Oracle by gjm11 on Tuesday December 07, 2010 @06:11AM (#1978712)
Unfortunately, what Java really does isn't only to be that combination of low-level and high-level. Just as vitally, (1) it is nice and easy and familiar for programmers familiar with current mainstream languages -- C-family syntax, approximately the usual control structures, few concepts that someone who's already programmed in C or C++ or C# or whatever won't find reasonably familiar -- and (2) it comes with a big bag of libraries for doing standard things: UI, database connectivity, regular expressions, logging, XML processing, and so forth.

Yes, ML is pretty good at those underlying principles; yes, you can use it to write code that's compact, safe, and fast; but it's not going to replace Java because #1 and #2 make Java easy for "ordinary programmers" doing ordinary businessy programming in a way that ML isn't and probably never will be.

(For the avoidance of doubt, I am not arguing that anyone who is comfortable in ML should use Java instead.)

Re:Apache loses Java showdown vote to Oracle by Nelson69 on Tuesday December 07, 2010 @09:35AM (#1979125)
I like the ML languages a lot, OCaml could be a java replacement.

There is the industry acceptance part that java has and then the runtime has been pretty well vetted and improved. I'd bet money that ML runtimes turn up with "issues" as larger more demanding applications are built.

And what exactly is going on with SML these days?

Re:Apache loses Java showdown vote to Oracle by yummyfajitas on Tuesday December 07, 2010 @11:24AM (#1979496)
OCaml has a long way to go before it can replace java.

http://caml.inria.fr/pub/docs/manual-ocaml/manual038.html

"The threads library is implemented by time-sharing on a single processor. It will not take advantage of multi-processor machines. Using this library will therefore never make programs run faster. However, many programs are easier to write when structured as several communicating processes."

Ocaml is a nice replacement for ANSI C, not for Java.

Re:Apache loses Java showdown vote to Oracle by jamii on Wednesday December 08, 2010 @11:01AM (#1983349)
> Ocaml is a nice replacement for ANSI C, not for Java.

That's pretty much how I use it. Ocaml is a great systems language.

Re:Apache loses Java showdown vote to Oracle by loup-vaillant on Tuesday December 07, 2010 @01:06PM (#1979915)
Doesn't sound like a long way to me. Or is it just one of many problems?
Re:Apache loses Java showdown vote to Oracle by yummyfajitas on Tuesday December 07, 2010 @01:36PM (#1980023)
Threading isn't optional and it isn't an easy project. It will take a long while for Ocaml to catch up, if it ever does.

The other big problem is the underlying OS. Java lives on the JVM, Ocaml lives on Unix. Unix isn't a substitute for the JVM and vice versa.

However, F# might be an ML based competitor to java. I don't know enough about the MS stack to say.

Re:Apache loses Java showdown vote to Oracle by loup-vaillant on Tuesday December 07, 2010 @05:39PM (#1980956)
I'm surprised about threading being hard. I thought it was just a matter of imitating a state-of-the-art GC. And it's not like it has to play nicely with JIT compilation. Now I agree Ocaml has little chance to catch up, given their apparent interest in the matter.

You're strongly suggesting that a Java replacement has to compile on some standardize byte-code… Might be a prerequisite for proprietary software, but otherwise looks unnecessary. Besides, what do you mean by "lives on UNIX"? Ocaml runs on Windows too…

As far as I know, F# is currently unsuitable: that would be escaping the claws of Oracle to fall in the jaws of Microsoft. Now if Microsoft fully frees .NET, or at least abandons all patent claims regarding it, F# might do.

Re:Apache loses Java showdown vote to Oracle by yummyfajitas on Tuesday December 07, 2010 @10:16PM (#1981713)
Threading is hard for even Haskell, which is a pure functional language (unlike ML). GHC has a bunch of fantastic people trying to do a good job, and they haven't finished yet, though arguably they are as good as Java in many ways.

What I mean by "lives on UNIX/lives on JVM" is a fuzzy statement about the Right Way of Doing Things. The Java way is to build a large system, integrated with the rest of the world via one or more public interfaces, potentially accessed via RMI. You'll talk to the database via JDBC. There are highly configurable enterprise tools for almost everything. This is an ecosystem you need to replace if you want to replace java.

The Ocaml way is to write a program that takes command line input and processes a stream of text (which can come from a file or stdin). To write a daemon, you double fork. Most of your interaction with the outside world is simply via a posix interface.

That's not to say you can't write command line unix utils in Java, or gigantic enterprise daemons in Ocaml. But you'll be going against the grain.