News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Modern C++ Won't Save Us by lmm on Tuesday April 23, 2019 @09:23AM (#19728304)
> Yes. But I want to make clear that you are still using global state for all uses within the project itself.

But if we believe in using libraries then often our project will itself be a library.

> The library can be implemented in whatever way. For example, setting the pointer in a global variable on API entry ;-)

And then you have the problem I mentioned: if there is a diamond dependency on your library then the thing using it will break.

> WHICH problem? I don't think there is one.

The problem of not being able to break down your project and understand it piecemeal.

> Global state is a fact of life. Your process has one address space. It has (probably) one server socket for listening to incoming request. It has (probably) one graphics window to show its state.

All those global things are a common source of bugs, as different pieces of the program make subtly different assumptions about them. Perhaps a certain amount of global state is unavoidable. That's not an argument against minimizing it.

> You are not writing a thousand pseudo-isolated programs. But ONE. One entity composed of a fixed number of parts (i.e. modules, code files) that work together to do what must be done.

If you write a program that can only be understood in its entirety, you'll be unable to maintain it once it becomes too big to fit in your head. Writing a thousand isolated functions gives you something much easier to understand and scale.

Re:Modern C++ Won't Save Us by jstimpfle on Tuesday April 23, 2019 @09:29AM (#19728347)
> The problem of not being able to break down your project and understand it piecemeal.

That's just incredibly untrue. It's FUD spread by OOP and FP zealots.

> All those global things are a common source of bugs, as different pieces of the program make subtly different assumptions about them.

Do you want to say that my logging routine is more complex because my windowing handle is stored in a globally accessible place?

> Perhaps a certain amount of global state is unavoidable. That's not an argument against minimizing it.

My advice is to make clear what the data means. Make it simple. Don't put a blanket over what's already hard to grasp.

Re:Modern C++ Won't Save Us by lmm on Tuesday April 23, 2019 @09:33AM (#19728378)
> Do you want to say that my logging routine is more complex because my windowing handle is global data?

If your logging routine touches your windowing handle that certainly makes it more complex. If I'm meant to know that your logging routine doesn't touch your windowing handle, that's precisely the statement that it isn't global data.

Re:Modern C++ Won't Save Us by jstimpfle on Tuesday April 23, 2019 @09:36AM (#19728398)
It is global data, because it can (and should be) used without threading it through 155 functions.

In terms of the relational data model, it is global data because there is always one, and only one, of it.

Re:Modern C++ Won't Save Us by jstimpfle on Tuesday April 23, 2019 @09:45AM (#19728481)
> But if we believe in using libraries then often our project will itself be a library.

How about making the project good first? Let's try to get something done instead of theoretizing.

Re:Modern C++ Won't Save Us by lmm on Tuesday April 23, 2019 @10:28AM (#19728927)
You mean start by building something that can be used and tested in isolation, rather than trying to build an enormous system in one go? Isn't that what you've been arguing against?
Re:Modern C++ Won't Save Us by jstimpfle on Tuesday April 23, 2019 @10:44AM (#19729100)
No I mean solve the problem "we need to build a program that does what it's required to do" (and no more) before trying to build a library that will cure diseases.
Re:Modern C++ Won't Save Us by lmm on Tuesday April 23, 2019 @12:23PM (#19730106)
That's a total non sequitur. Libraries can, and usually should, be much smaller than applications.
Re:Modern C++ Won't Save Us by jstimpfle on Tuesday April 23, 2019 @12:26PM (#19730131)
Libraries are much harder than applications because they must work for a large number of applications with diverse requirements. They need to be more abstract, and therein lies the danger.

Regarding the size, clearly wrong. It depends a lot on the library. A windowing or font rastering library will be a lot larger than your typical application.

And for libraries that are much smaller than the application itself, why bother depending on them? (Anecdote, I heard the Excel team in the 90s had their own compiler).