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Re:Neuroscientist Larry Cahill on the ‘neurosexism’ debate by jstanley on Monday April 22, 2019 @06:05AM (#19717689)
I don't really have a horse in this race, but the reason women might want to fit in to man-sized roles is because all the high-paying roles are man-sized.
Re:Neuroscientist Larry Cahill on the ‘neurosexism’ debate by dijit on Monday April 22, 2019 @06:33AM (#19717801)
I don't really have a solid response to that argument other than that I think we as a society need to stop emphasising traits that are predominantly held by men and start appreciating the traits that are predominantly held by women, those traits are incredibly valuable.

To give a concrete example: Dame Caroline Haslett who was the President of the Women's Engineering Society in Britain created objectively the safest electrical outlet and plugging mechanism ever conceived (as long as you don't step on one). There was no such mandate for it to be so safe, you could argue that a man could have done exactly the same but I'd rather consider that she was being extremely empathetic as to how the device would be used and that safety in this area would quite literally save the lives of men, women and children.

A world without her contribution would be a lesser one, but I would argue that it was made with her femininity, not with how much she filled a man-shaped role.

Re:Neuroscientist Larry Cahill on the ‘neurosexism’ debate by whatshisface on Monday April 22, 2019 @09:53AM (#19718920)
>but I'd rather consider that she was being extremely empathetic

Believing science is one thing, but that sounds like exactly the sort of "gendered narrative building" that feminists are trying to fight against. When they say stuff like "gender roles are fictional," a large part of it is due to people inventing stories in their heads about gender roles that aren't true. I think that it's fair to not try to add anything beyond what's demonstrably there.

Re:Neuroscientist Larry Cahill on the ‘neurosexism’ debate by AlexB138 on Monday April 22, 2019 @10:37AM (#19719239)
> I think that it's fair to not try to add anything beyond what's demonstrably there.

Why? If peoples' experiences and psychology (in my layman's understanding of agreeableness) show that women tend to be more empathetic than men, it seems perfectly reasonable for them to suggest that that may have benefited an inventor in a fantastic discovery they made. People have no obligation to buy into others' narratives. Groups can claim whatever they want is fictional, it doesn't mean everyone else has to censor their speech accordingly.

I thought the person you were responding to was making a very thoughtful point, and one that was very respectful of women and the valuable insight some of them have that is often overlooked.

Re:Neuroscientist Larry Cahill on the ‘neurosexism’ debate by Faark on Monday April 22, 2019 @12:34PM (#19720306)
> I thought the person you were responding to was making a very thoughtful point, and one that was very respectful of women and the valuable insight some of them have that is often overlooked.

The problem is his comment can very easily be read as "Women should do what they are good at". This implies "taking care of kids and home" for many invested in this narrative. On contested topic like this, we should try to phrase our comments very clearly.

> People have no obligation to buy into others' narratives.

Our society seems to work best if we agree on fundamental "narratives". Equal opportunity being good is one of them. Actually, not really, since perfect equal opportunity would require us to not be able to help our own children more than others can help theirs. But let's not get into capitalism/class stuff but back to gender. A talking point the other side likes to make is "wanting equal outcomes". Nope, that would be stupid. But significantly unequal outcomes are a good indicator we'll find unequal opportunities when we look into it. Or some other reason. But the other side very quickly likes to accept "men and women are just different" as other reason and prefers to disregard e.g. fixing societal feedback loops via affirmative action. That finally brings me to your first part:

> If peoples' experiences and psychology (in my layman's understanding of agreeableness) show that women tend to be more empathetic than me

I don't think we have hard scientific research data showing to what degree this is based on nature or nurture. The latter would be problematic since against the spirit of equal opportunity. Of cause that question is hard to answer, since randomized controlled trials are impossible and understanding the physics and it's emergent properties is still beyond us.

Re:Neuroscientist Larry Cahill on the ‘neurosexism’ debate by mpfundstein on Monday April 22, 2019 @06:14AM (#19717729)
And because money (and power) is all that counts nowadays right? There was a time where it was not a shame if a woman chose to stay at home. Nowadays, people toll their eyes if my wife tells them about her (very own) choice..
Re:Neuroscientist Larry Cahill on the ‘neurosexism’ debate by SolaceQuantum on Monday April 22, 2019 @07:04AM (#19717913)
I think this post was made in bad faith to the argument of the poster. Money and therefore power matter a lot in a society in which you must purchase almost all of your basic goods with it. housing, food, water, etc. Up to a certain point money does track with quality of life, and the point in which it ceases to be the case is well above median wealth. If we were to evaluate that it is normal for women to have less paying jobs because women’s work is worth less pay, then the knock off effect is that women aren’t worth a quality of life equal to men on average.

Also, I am under the impression that rolling ones eyes at a choice to stay at home is a continued devaluation of women’s work. The upkeep of a living location and the caring of any little humans is a significant labor, such that upon outsourcing is often equivalent to a median yearly salary of a single person. However because there isn’t a common framework to evaluate worth beyond money in the society I live in, unpaid labor isn’t valued.

Re:Neuroscientist Larry Cahill on the ‘neurosexism’ debate by wccrawford on Monday April 22, 2019 @07:17AM (#19717967)
While I fully agree that people should accept that some people are driven by things other than money, and even beyond that, it should be perfectly socially acceptable to be driven by other goals instead...

People who are driven by money, no matter gender, skin color, etc shouldn't be held back from it because of preconceptions about their ability. Only their actual ability should matter.

Re:Neuroscientist Larry Cahill on the ‘neurosexism’ debate by UncleMeat on Monday April 22, 2019 @11:19AM (#19719547)
Yet the us does not have mandatory maternity leave. Money is choices. That people must sacrifice it in order to do things like raise children is evidence that our society does not value homemaking.
Re:Neuroscientist Larry Cahill on the ‘neurosexism’ debate by AvocadoPanic on Monday April 22, 2019 @08:04PM (#19724359)
Or that our society values self-sufficiency and two-parrent households where one parent cares for the children in the home.
Re:Neuroscientist Larry Cahill on the ‘neurosexism’ debate by amanaplanacanal on Tuesday April 23, 2019 @12:34PM (#19730209)
I'm not sure this follows. Is the idea that lack of maternity leave will cause two-parent households? What is the mechanism?
Re:Neuroscientist Larry Cahill on the ‘neurosexism’ debate by threeseed on Monday April 22, 2019 @07:20AM (#19717990)
Did you choose your role just because it is high-paying ?

Or were there are other factors e.g. stimulating, flexible, empowering, creative etc.

Because pretty sure women are selecting roles for a range of different factors as well. You know because all women aren't the same. Just like all men aren't the same.

Re:Neuroscientist Larry Cahill on the ‘neurosexism’ debate by dsfyu404ed on Monday April 22, 2019 @11:03AM (#19719437)
Definitely the money. I can think of several career paths that likely would likely have made me happier but I didn't pursue them because I was able to do computer programming and why throw that potential money away.
Re:Neuroscientist Larry Cahill on the ‘neurosexism’ debate by dijit on Monday April 22, 2019 @11:34AM (#19719701)
That's actually quite sad.

But you said it yourself: "several career paths would likely have made me happier".

What's the point in living if not to be happy? Money is just a means to avoid unhappiness. It's been proven time and time again that after a decent income money does not increase happiness.

Re:Neuroscientist Larry Cahill on the ‘neurosexism’ debate by dsfyu404ed on Monday April 22, 2019 @11:59AM (#19719965)
I've yet to find the point where more money doesn't make me happier. Money buys a lot of things that make you happy. Money is also more much more capable of making one's family happy than a job I like more than my current one is. It's not like I hate my job. I just like it less than the blue collar stuff I did before I got my degree. I don't have a trust fund. I have to make my own living and I optimized for doing that. Waxing poetic about "occupational fulfillment" is something the upper classes do after they've been upper class long enough to forget how well they have it. I don't care what other people think. Money is making me happy. My property is covered in classic cars in various states of disrepair, my fridge always has beer in it. My life is quite comfortable thanks to money. The ease with which money can be converted into things that bring me joy is unparalleled. Not taking all that for granted probably helps a lot.
Re:Neuroscientist Larry Cahill on the ‘neurosexism’ debate by asark on Monday April 22, 2019 @02:42PM (#19721578)
Yeah, software development's not a little more money than the other things I'd like to do, it's a lot, and also easier, and also less demanding of my time than some of them, and I can find a job almost anywhere (remote, even!) with no trouble.

I'm (reasonably) good at it. I don't like it much. But be slightly good and have a little experience in programming and if you're not careful pretty soon it's way better than most other options you've got, by every measure except "enjoy and am proud of what I do".

Re:Neuroscientist Larry Cahill on the ‘neurosexism’ debate by dijit on Monday April 22, 2019 @02:18PM (#19721274)
> I don't have a trust fund. I have to make my own living and I optimized for doing that. Waxing poetic about "occupational fulfillment" is something the upper classes do after they've been upper class long enough to forget how well they have it.

I also do not have a trust fund, actually the contrary, I grew up as poor as you can possibly be in the UK. Mother didn't work, had various vices including drinking and smoking which did not jive with our financial situation (living on benefits).

Due to that my mother put more worth into immaterial things, and that rubbed off on me I think.

Additionally; I've only been employed in a self-sustaining fashion for 8 years now. Perhaps I've lost what it feels like to be destitute- but I don't think I'd trade happiness for money because outside of not worrying about bills and food money doesn't actually buy me anything. Just a little more ease of mind.

Re:Neuroscientist Larry Cahill on the ‘neurosexism’ debate by dsfyu404ed on Monday April 22, 2019 @02:31PM (#19721446)
The lower you start the lower the "more money will not improve my life anymore" number is. I have no desire to live in a nice neighborhood, drive new cars and drink fancy beer so the threshold where money stops improving my life is probably a couple tens of thousands of dollars per year lower than if I wanted those things but I still aspire to own vacation house so that pushes the number higher.

I think there's also some pretty big cultural differences between the US and western Europe when it comes to decisions to pursue money or not.

Re:Neuroscientist Larry Cahill on the ‘neurosexism’ debate by dijit on Monday April 22, 2019 @02:38PM (#19721518)
I don't disagree. But I have no way of knowing.
Re:Neuroscientist Larry Cahill on the ‘neurosexism’ debate by filoleg on Monday April 22, 2019 @01:35PM (#19720842)
Thanks for putting it this way. I have been struggling to articulate my position on the topic in such a succinct manner, but your post has set it straight for me. Not into classic cars or yearning for blue collar work myself, but the general sentiment is deeply relatable.
Re:Neuroscientist Larry Cahill on the ‘neurosexism’ debate by roenxi on Monday April 22, 2019 @10:41AM (#19719272)
But are the high paying roles man-sized or are the men shaping themselves to the high-paying roles?

There is evidence that women are judged by appearance and men by financial success. Even a mild effect would be more than enough to skew the outcomes; it would impact the more competitive representatives of each gender.

Re:Neuroscientist Larry Cahill on the ‘neurosexism’ debate by MRD85 on Monday April 22, 2019 @06:17PM (#19723553)
If being an aged care nurse suddenly paid handsomely I would bet that you'd find the field full of men in a mid term. Men make a habit out of taking whatever work makes them the best money.
Re:Neuroscientist Larry Cahill on the ‘neurosexism’ debate by strictfp on Monday April 22, 2019 @02:19PM (#19721288)
This. I think we have to dismantle roles which have extreme expectations. If you're expected to be available 24/7 and basically abandon your family for your job, it's something which overwhelming selects for men, who have that classic role in society.

I think this is the most important question to solve if we want more equal outcome in worklife.

Re:Neuroscientist Larry Cahill on the ‘neurosexism’ debate by belorn on Monday April 22, 2019 @05:51PM (#19723351)
It not about high-paying roles. The industries that are talked about in gender segregation discussions are those that are high-paying, high social status jobs. A big difference.

When I was young the highest paying job direct out of high school was underwater welder. Not many teenage girls are signing up for that program, nor are there much political interest to get 50/50 gender ration for jobs that work in the dark, dangerous, on rusty oil rigs far away from land.

In a bit of irony, the same can be said for professions dominated by women. Hired midwifes during the summer vacation months here in Sweden are getting salaries up to 9k a month. Very few people here in Sweden has a monthly pay that high. Demand can skyrocket when you only recruit from half the population, at which point the employer will pay what the market demands.

Re:Neuroscientist Larry Cahill on the ‘neurosexism’ debate by tomohawk on Monday April 22, 2019 @07:33AM (#19718056)
The worst jobs out there are male dominated, and we don't see some big push to get more women working in them.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2019/04/20/the-worst-jo...

Re:Neuroscientist Larry Cahill on the ‘neurosexism’ debate by burkaman on Monday April 22, 2019 @10:24AM (#19719142)
Did you actually look at this list?

1. Taxi Driver: Uber and Lyft have significantly increased the number of women, and there are lots of efforts to get more women involved. https://www.gosafr.com/ is one example.

2. Logger: This is probably the kind of job you were thinking of. Logging is completely male dominated, but there are some small efforts at change: https://www.pressherald.com/2019/03/17/the-axe-women-loggers... and https://www.tigercat.com/between-the-branches/logger-girl/

3. Newspaper reporter: Majority male, but not overwhelmingly. Definitely a big push to equalize the field: http://www.womensmediacenter.com/reports/the-status-of-women...

4. Retail salesperson: Majority women.

5. Enlisted military personnel: Hard to summarize here, but issues around women in the US military come up quite frequently in Congress and elsewhere, and the history of increasing participation and equality is long.

6. Corrections officer: Women were 37% of adult officers and 51% of juvenile officers in 2007 (http://www.corrections.com/articles/21703-women-as-correctio...). There is a push to increase equality: https://www.correctionsone.com/women-in-corrections/

7. Disc jockey: Hard to find exact stats, but it's the same story as everywhere else in modern society. Used to be completely male dominated, now women are increasingly entering the industry and fighting against entrenched stereotypes. A random article: https://www.laweekly.com/music/women-djs-are-out-there-clubs...

8. Broadcaster: Feel like I'm starting to repeat myself. It's the same story as everywhere else in the media. Look at the Women's Media Center and other organizations for evidence of a push.

9. Advertising salesperson: Is this the kind of job you thought was on this list? Majority women, apparently: https://datausa.io/profile/soc/112011/#demographics

10. Painter: Seems to be similar to logging. I honestly don't know why. Presumably it's historically male (like everything), and it's not a particularly desirable career for anyone.

etc.

Industries like logging and painting are outliers. There are some jobs that are so physically demanding that men have a significant innate advantage, but there's no natural reason for any industry to be 95+% male.

[dead]
Re:Neuroscientist Larry Cahill on the ‘neurosexism’ debate by ionised on Tuesday April 23, 2019 @08:38AM (#19727964)
Seems like he just posted 10 points to counter your shaky 1, then you proceeded to ignore every one of them before finishing off with an accusation of a straw-man argument.