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Re:U.S. billionaires worry about the survival of the system ... by _bxg1 on Sunday April 21, 2019 @11:37AM (#19712550)
My worry with UBI as a replacement for work is that it relies on the continued altruism of the elite, with no balancing force keeping the status-quo. Despite its problems, properly-functioning capitalism keeps the few accountable to the many. Billionaires can only throw their weight around up to a point, because at the end of the day they rely on regular people to keep their economic engine going. They need us for our economic value, which gives us power. If that became no longer the case, democracy itself could be abolished, with no consequence to those at the top. Capitalism has many problems, and doesn't work on its own, and certainly needs fixing in 2019, but I think it's also the lynchpin maintaining any status quo at all between elites and everyone else.

Now, this also assumes that people become literally useless in the automated future, compared to systems. It's possible - if unlikely - that humans always move on to a higher frontier of uniquely human work once the previous one becomes automated. In that scenario, UBI could be a great way to ride that transition. Also, partial UBI, meant only to give people a platform for growth in a world that still has jobs for them, could be a good way to combat economic inequality.

Re:U.S. billionaires worry about the survival of the system ... by tsunamifury on Sunday April 21, 2019 @12:37PM (#19712929)
I’d like to believe what you are saying, but it sounds a bit like the cows have control of the farm because the farmer needs the milk. All the farmer does is pain-optimize to the cheapest possible conditions that keep cows alive and milking. Which turns out is locking them in stalls and force feeding them hormones.

People are just realizing now we’ve become the cows needed to legeitimize the capital that is milked back out of us. I agree though that UBI is just trying to juice that feedback loop in the most superficial way possible. Like cows deciding that more hay and hormones will somehow free them. (It won’t)

Re:U.S. billionaires worry about the survival of the system ... by _bxg1 on Sunday April 21, 2019 @12:45PM (#19712981)
Yet if the cows stopped producing milk, the farmers would simply let them all die off. And to stretch the metaphor, while the cows produce milk they have the option of unionizing. Saying "we'll all quit if you don't treat us better" only works while they care if you quit.
Re:U.S. billionaires worry about the survival of the system ... by jschwartzi on Sunday April 21, 2019 @12:55PM (#19713049)
Sure you can unionize but we'll just contract out your jobs.
Re:U.S. billionaires worry about the survival of the system ... by erentz on Sunday April 21, 2019 @12:45PM (#19712982)
> My worry with UBI as a replacement for work is that it relies on the continued altruism of the elite

Well it relies on a fair and properly functioning democracy. We have a very corrupt system at the moment, people don't get what they want because politicians are bought and paid for by their donors. We need adequate defenses against this in our system, then it stops being anything to do with the altruism of the elite, because the majority regular folks are going to continue voting for the UBI or other benefits.

The other balance is the threat of revolution. Keep the population happy enough or they'll come for you.

Removing the gated community effect would also help. If the rich have to use the same services as the rest of us, then they have an incentive to ensure those services are well run. If large inheritances are effectively taxed away, then they have to ensure society provides a good platform for their children. Etc.

Re:U.S. billionaires worry about the survival of the system ... by HNKingpin on Sunday April 21, 2019 @12:47PM (#19712998)
> Well it relies on a fair and properly functioning democracy.

For that, there need to be consequences for politicians that screw up. There aren't. Actually, nowhere do we even have a real democracy. A regular person has no say in anything at all.

Re:U.S. billionaires worry about the survival of the system ... by enitihas on Sunday April 21, 2019 @12:10PM (#19712728)
I think this is the same point that Harari makes in "21 lessons for the 21st century" i.e democracy became important simultaneously with the work of people being important along with the industrial revolution. Nations needed a happy population as a happy population was the ultimate source of economic output as well as an army. If more and more economic output doesn't involve humans, humans can't use a lot of existing tactics to bring about a change. Also, if most people are getting by well on an UBI, would people even be anymore interested in politics, since jobs are currently an important issue in any election.
Re:U.S. billionaires worry about the survival of the system ... by vageli on Sunday April 21, 2019 @12:19PM (#19712794)
> Also, if most people are getting by well on an UBI, would people even be anymore interested in politics, since jobs are currently an important issue in any election.

One possible counter is that people may have more free time to spend engaging in politics. Once one need is satisfied attention will inevitably shift. Mazlow's hierarchy and all that.

Re:U.S. billionaires worry about the survival of the system ... by enraged_camel on Sunday April 21, 2019 @12:25PM (#19712842)
>>Also, if most people are getting by well on an UBI, would people even be anymore interested in politics, since jobs are currently an important issue in any election.

One of the main reasons people give when I ask them why they don’t pay attention to politics is that they don’t have any time or energy or willpower left to do so after working 40+ hours a week doing largely meaningless, soul-crushing tasks.

Re:U.S. billionaires worry about the survival of the system ... by HNKingpin on Sunday April 21, 2019 @12:46PM (#19712990)
>Now, this also assumes that people become literally useless in the automated future, compared to systems. It's possible - if unlikely - that humans always move on to a higher frontier of uniquely human work once the previous one becomes automated. In that scenario, UBI could be a great way to ride that transition. Also, partial UBI, meant only to give people a platform for growth in a world that still has jobs for them, could be a good way to combat economic inequality.

What you're missing is that not everyone will be qualified to do those tougher new jobs. Especially the people who are now working at McDonalds, as cashiers, etc.

Re:U.S. billionaires worry about the survival of the system ... by _bxg1 on Sunday April 21, 2019 @12:48PM (#19713008)
I don't buy the idea that people are fundamentally "smart" and "stupid", or "creative" and "uncreative". I think those things mostly depend on what kind of environment you grow up in, and what your self-perception is.
Re:U.S. billionaires worry about the survival of the system ... by nercht12 on Sunday April 21, 2019 @06:41PM (#19715033)
To your credit, most people probably have an average brain (and roughly the same brain power) that is simply wired differently and focuses on different things. One person is more practical, another more aesthetic, another more mathematical, etc. However, the way you SPEND your brain power has an effect on the kinds of outcomes you get. If you spend all day thinking about cattle, you're not going to understand economics (much less why anyone would want to go to Mars). I'd like to say that's "obvious", but (sadly) to many people, it's not.

Also to your credit, the environment (you grow up in) does have an effect on you significantly, and it shapes what about you is drawn out as well as what information you have to begin with. Someone growing up in the ghetto isn't going to understand the life of the gentry in France. Someone with poor education isn't going to see why they need math for life (until maybe too late).

In short, we all start with a decent brain and a certain wiring. Environment draws out or suppresses who we are, but more importantly, gives us starting information to work with, and this shapes our views and ways of thinking.

Re:U.S. billionaires worry about the survival of the system ... by itronitron on Sunday April 21, 2019 @01:13PM (#19713173)
>> continued altruism of the elite

there is a fundamental error in how you are thinking about this

Re:U.S. billionaires worry about the survival of the system ... by skybrian on Sunday April 21, 2019 @12:54PM (#19713046)
Social security doesn't seem at all vulnerable to lobbyists or what billionaires want. In a democracy, how would that work? Businesses depend on the legal system.

Lobbyists matter more for issues where most people don't have a direct interest and/or aren't paying attention. UBI by its nature would have a very large constituency, once people are getting the checks.

That said, I agree that partial UBI would be better to start, but more for reasons of affordability and not changing the economy too quickly.

Re:U.S. billionaires worry about the survival of the system ... by maxxxxx on Sunday April 21, 2019 @01:00PM (#19713087)
Social security is underfunded and also there is a lot of pressure to not raise the retirement age despite changing demographics. So from one side there was lobbying to give tax cuts instead of funding it and there is also a lot of lobbying to not raise retirement age.

So billionaires and the AARP both get their way most likely at the cost of future generations.

Re:U.S. billionaires worry about the survival of the system ... by skybrian on Sunday April 21, 2019 @01:13PM (#19713170)
I don't see how that adds up to a vote to cut social security. If it comes down to it, raising taxes seems more likely.
Re:U.S. billionaires worry about the survival of the system ... by ummonk on Sunday April 21, 2019 @12:30PM (#19712885)
Isn't the point of UBI to keep that engine going by propping up demand for consumer goods?
Re:U.S. billionaires worry about the survival of the system ... by _bxg1 on Sunday April 21, 2019 @12:43PM (#19712971)
If that were all there was to it it would be totally unsustainable. There are two possible goals of UBI, depending on who you ask:

1) Automation is going to make the concept of jobs obsolete. Therefore most of the population will simply die of poverty if we don't artificially redistribute all of the wealth.

2) Many people today are stuck in poverty because they're too financially stretched to pay for healthcare, education, a car to get to work, childcare, etc., even while spending all extra time working multiple jobs. The hope is that by giving them a life raft, they'll have the leeway to spend time, money, and energy on self-betterment, and thereby enrich the economy.

My argument is that #1 sounds good but doesn't seem robust against a few powerful bad actors. #2, though, could be quite effective.

Re:U.S. billionaires worry about the survival of the system ... by perfunctory on Sunday April 21, 2019 @02:40PM (#19713728)
> ...because at the end of the day they rely on regular people to keep their economic engine going. They need us for our economic value...

Exactly the same thing could be said about slaves.

> ..., which gives us power.

Which didn't give them much power though.

Re:U.S. billionaires worry about the survival of the system ... by anovikov on Sunday April 21, 2019 @12:48PM (#19713002)
Mass democracy was always a mistake and will just have to be abolished (although probably there is no way for it to be abolished democratically as it's a chicken and egg problem - so it will probably happen through societal collapse and what's called a regime change).

It worked okay at the height of industrial era, but worse and worse ever since. Nothing good happens if you let people who bear no real responsibility for anything, to make decisions. Only property owners should vote.

Re:U.S. billionaires worry about the survival of the system ... by nercht12 on Sunday April 21, 2019 @02:01PM (#19713504)
> Only property owners should vote.

That's a good slogan for starting a war. One day, people like you will have their land taken from them. Will they still feel the same way?

The fact is, if you take away a person's vote, they have no voice AT ALL in their government. The vote actually happens to be the last thing PREVENTING war because the fact is, everyone would like to do what they want and not have other people tell them how to live. We have government to prevent people from hurting each other and doing mean things to each other, and though it may not be all that effective, anarchy never works and always ends in some kind of oligarchy.

People go to war whenever things are taken from them. Land, property, rights, etc. They are happy when things are given to them. Bread, circuses, etc. So if you want to start a war, take from people. If you want to prevent it, give to them.

Re:U.S. billionaires worry about the survival of the system ... by anovikov on Sunday April 21, 2019 @02:40PM (#19713726)
Yeah so this is why it can't be reformed. System must simply fail.