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Re:'Calling bullshit': the college class on how not to be du... by gambler on Wednesday April 17, 2019 @10:51AM (#19683059)
>"Calling Bullshit is not dedicated to teaching students that Fox News promotes “fake news” or that National Enquirer headlines are fallacious."

Oh, the irony. An article about college class that teaches people to spot bad information online is itself full of standard techniques journalists use to manipulate people.

I see this one a lot lately. Someone drops a phrase that assumes something the author wants readers to remember and believe. The phrase is usually oddly specific, while the author pretends to convey a general idea or talks about something entirely unrelated.

Re:'Calling bullshit': the college class on how not to be du... by leftyted on Wednesday April 17, 2019 @12:18PM (#19683913)
I think you're wrong.

That quote assumes that when people think about "calling bullshit" in relation to the news that they would immediately think of Fox News or The National Enquirer. Is that wrong? Won't most Guardian readers immediately think of Fox News when they read this headline?

When I clicked on this article, I started from a perspective of "Oh look, it's The Guardian, a lefty publication, talking about how Fox News is bad. How shocking". I was wrong.

So yeah, I don't think the bit you quoted is an attempt to manipulate readers. By referencing Fox News, it's just trying to account for what it assumes its readers already think. And I think it's basically correct in those assumptions.

Re:'Calling bullshit': the college class on how not to be du... by Bartweiss on Wednesday April 17, 2019 @12:45PM (#19684169)
To the article's credit, that section makes a real effort to differentiate "bullshit" from "fake news" and "fallacious".

I know an awful lot of people who are too educated and internet-savvy to accept most nakedly-false claims, but happily bite on stats that lack per-capita corrections, or compare rates like change and accuracy without accounting for base values, or even make subtle but concrete errors like confusing 'ppm' with 'ppb'. They may not accept anything farcically false, but "less wrong" is not always "more right", and it's still easy to end up believe an entire-untrue claim off respectable looking sources. I think the focus on Snopes-style truth ratings has sometimes hindered our ability to literally call 'bullshit', asserting that a piece undermines knowledge regardless of its technical correctness.

I'm not sure if this article succeeds at that - I think conflating Fox with The National Enquirer and other sources that regularly invent things outright is a mistake that obscures the discussion. (Fox has run content sourced from RealTrueNews, but the distinction still matters; fake news sites and the media titans legitimizing their stories are different parts of the ecosystem.) But it's a worthwhile attempt regardless.

Re:'Calling bullshit': the college class on how not to be du... by hn_throwaway_99 on Wednesday April 17, 2019 @11:11AM (#19683236)
Would actually be great if the Calling Bullshit class used this exact article as an example of some techniques to spot.
Re:'Calling bullshit': the college class on how not to be du... by gambler on Wednesday April 17, 2019 @11:27AM (#19683401)
I think the class is more about analyzing data:

https://callingbull.org/

Re:'Calling bullshit': the college class on how not to be du... by Bartweiss on Wednesday April 17, 2019 @12:32PM (#19684051)
I think the rhetorical term is apophasis. It's the same sort of deniable invocation as declaring "I won't stoop to talking about my opponent's sordid affair". A rhetoric teacher might say that it's just another way to persuasively make a point, but it seems hard to deny some manipulation or dishonesty when the "I won't say" element is intentionally false.

You make an interesting point about the recent/online deployment of it. Most examples of apophasis are about bringing up familiar topics without owning that action, as with invoking rumors or ad hominems in a debate. But I increasingly see the version you're describe, where it's used as a way to present a very specific statement without needing to defend it. A lot of old uses of the technique only work as a full sentence, specifically to avoid being quoted as saying the inappropriate thing directly. But the new ones do the opposite, very specifically accommodating misleading pull quotes. "As a recent Guardian article about critical thinking courses said, 'Fox News promotes "fake news"...'" The phrase comes into existence, soundbite ready, without anyone needing to actually defend it.

Perhaps this isn't the most extreme example, since the author might readily defend the "fake news" claim, but it still serves to associate the college course with rejecting Fox when that's expressly not the point.

[dead]
Re:'Calling bullshit': the college class on how not to be du... by xeeeeeeeeeeenu on Wednesday April 17, 2019 @11:52AM (#19683642)
> mythical racist muslim no-go zones in Europe

Are you disagreeing with Merkel[1]?

[1] - https://www.apnews.com/438bb0ac98d04459ab2e392f3c4fc5ef

Re:'Calling bullshit': the college class on how not to be du... by kurthr on Wednesday April 17, 2019 @12:19PM (#19683921)
Nope, not what the story says, not what even Merkel said. What a waste of time, if that's the best you have.
Re:'Calling bullshit': the college class on how not to be du... by frolig on Wednesday April 17, 2019 @11:24AM (#19683372)
Irrelevant, it's about the rhetorical device not the content.
Re:'Calling bullshit': the college class on how not to be du... by Nasrudith on Wednesday April 17, 2019 @11:51AM (#19683636)
Regardless I think it might really arise naturally then to some extent - regardless of "outside" perception. Like say when referring to counterproductive medical practices "Like doctors wearing neckties as germ reservoirs - not antivaxxers trying to avoid autism." Of course that deniability would be part of its appeal.
Re:'Calling bullshit': the college class on how not to be du... by frolig on Wednesday April 17, 2019 @12:46PM (#19684179)
A bull shits regardless of intent. Is the standard for writers "human" or "golden calf"?
Re:'Calling bullshit': the college class on how not to be du... by s_y_n_t_a_x on Wednesday April 17, 2019 @11:32AM (#19683451)
Border towns are very unsafe right now. I live in central Texas so it's not really bad, but I have family down on the border. There's a lot of home invasions down there right now. Their house has been broken into 3 times in the last 2 months.

I'm sure sitting wherever you are it's easy to dismiss this as mythical, but for people living down there, it's a real problem.

edit: downvoting doesn't make the problem go away.

Re:'Calling bullshit': the college class on how not to be du... by tptacek on Wednesday April 17, 2019 @11:52AM (#19683638)
This is phenomenally off-topic, but since it's so easy to rebut: border counties in the US have lower crime than the rest of the country.
Re:'Calling bullshit': the college class on how not to be du... by BrandonMarc on Wednesday April 17, 2019 @02:48PM (#19685316)
... and the officials don't have an incentive to diminish the stats?
Re:'Calling bullshit': the college class on how not to be du... by tptacek on Wednesday April 17, 2019 @03:02PM (#19685433)
They currently (and at the time the stats were last collected) have the exact opposite incentive.
Re:'Calling bullshit': the college class on how not to be du... by BrandonMarc on Wednesday April 17, 2019 @06:20PM (#19686947)
Maybe from the top of the US administration, yes. But from the guys over the nearby river, with their "plata o plomo" billboards ...

Maybe I'm wrong. I'll simply observe officials have various incentives to tweak the numbers in either direction.

Re:'Calling bullshit': the college class on how not to be du... by s_y_n_t_a_x on Wednesday April 17, 2019 @12:19PM (#19683923)
I was responding to the claim that Fox is pushing an invasion narrative. The invasion is real and dismissing it doesn't help anyone. Unless you live down there or have family that does, you can't comprehend how bad it is down there right now. Maybe we should have livestreams setup so the rest of the country can see it.
Re:'Calling bullshit': the college class on how not to be du... by SketchySeaBeast on Wednesday April 17, 2019 @12:28PM (#19684005)
https://www.cato.org/blog/crime-along-mexican-border-lower-r...

According to the FBI it's lower. Unless it's changed dramatically in the last 2 years, at which point I'd suggest that maybe this new "tough on immigration" tactic isn't working.

[dead]
Re:'Calling bullshit': the college class on how not to be du... by tptacek on Wednesday April 17, 2019 @03:15PM (#19685541)
No, the crime level is lower in all 23 US/Mexico border counties. And it's not "not the worst place in the world"; it's better than the both US average and the average of all non-border counties. The problem you are alluding to does not, in the actual FBI data, exist.
Re:'Calling bullshit': the college class on how not to be du... by s_y_n_t_a_x on Wednesday April 17, 2019 @04:00PM (#19685941)
So we shouldn't do anything about mass shootings because they don't affect the overall crime stats?

We should address any crime problem if there is a solution, not ignore it because it didn't make a large overall difference and the city is safer than other cities.

Re:'Calling bullshit': the college class on how not to be du... by tptacek on Wednesday April 17, 2019 @04:12PM (#19686066)
The statement you made at the top of this thread is literally and simply false. That's all I came here to say.
Re:'Calling bullshit': the college class on how not to be du... by s_y_n_t_a_x on Wednesday April 17, 2019 @09:28PM (#19687989)
Citing an FBI statistic doesn't make it safe. Just because those cities have a lower crime rate doesn't mean that a crime problem does not exist.
Re:'Calling bullshit': the college class on how not to be du... by Nasrudith on Wednesday April 17, 2019 @11:59AM (#19683717)
And yet the people most concerned about border security are those who live far away from the border.

Perhaps not coincidentally because they see the real impact for good and ill of both "the problem" and the "solution" and draw their own conclusions.

Or it could simply be because the people who live there would be less scared of that sort of thing and why you don't see people in California freaking out about their minor quakes. Anyone that terrified of seismic activity would have gone to a more tectonically stable place.

Re:'Calling bullshit': the college class on how not to be du... by SketchySeaBeast on Wednesday April 17, 2019 @11:41AM (#19683528)
I assume that all of those break ins have been due to immigrants, which you know for a fact? And do you think this is because the people who commit the crime are "bad hombres" or desperate?
Re:'Calling bullshit': the college class on how not to be du... by s_y_n_t_a_x on Wednesday April 17, 2019 @12:14PM (#19683864)
In my family's case, yes, they have all been illegals. I cannot speak for others.

Why they commit the crime is not my point, the fact is they are committing the crime and endangering citizens living there.

Re:'Calling bullshit': the college class on how not to be du... by SketchySeaBeast on Wednesday April 17, 2019 @12:18PM (#19683902)
I'm surprised to hear that all the burglars have been caught.
Re:'Calling bullshit': the college class on how not to be du... by DoreenMichele on Wednesday April 17, 2019 @03:21PM (#19685588)
Their house has been broken into 3 times in the last 2 months.

This may be true, but it neither supports the assertion that crime is bad in that area, nor the assertion that it's due to an "invasion."

It's possible there's something peculiar to that home that is attracting problems.

Re:'Calling bullshit': the college class on how not to be du... by s_y_n_t_a_x on Wednesday April 17, 2019 @03:24PM (#19685620)
Are you serious shifting the blame to the homeowner? The only thing attracting problems is that it's near the border. What else do you suggest that the house could be doing to ask for this. Should it put on a more conservative outfit?

Migrants come across seeking food/water/money so they break into homes.

We should secure the border with surveillance and a wall so migrants are forced to use official ports of entry. We then should take as many as possible and coordinate with Mexico to take the rest, if neither can, the two countries should deport them back to their country or origin.

Re:'Calling bullshit': the college class on how not to be du... by DoreenMichele on Wednesday April 17, 2019 @03:26PM (#19685636)
Are you serious shifting the blame to the homeowner?

No.

Migrants come across seeking food/water/money so they break into homes.

Do they actually know who broke in? Are these solved crimes?

Because if not, pinning it on migrants is called prejudice.

Re:'Calling bullshit': the college class on how not to be du... by s_y_n_t_a_x on Wednesday April 17, 2019 @03:29PM (#19685666)
Then what was your original statement for then?

The situation described in another comment:

"The first was apprehended by local police while attempting to pawn the stolen TV. The second one was shot and ended up in the ER. I suppose I can't speak for the third, but if you had to take an educated guess..."

Re:'Calling bullshit': the college class on how not to be du... by DoreenMichele on Wednesday April 17, 2019 @03:40PM (#19685770)
That's still basically prejudice. You don't actually know who committed the third crime, but you are all too happy to assume.

I'm sorry for what your family has been through. Your approach to arguing this isn't a good approach for an environment like HN.

Re:'Calling bullshit': the college class on how not to be du... by s_y_n_t_a_x on Wednesday April 17, 2019 @03:57PM (#19685908)
Sure I'll concede to that, though I wouldn't call it prejudice, I'd call it bias. Ignoring the last one, those were two crimes that could have prevented if we secured our borders and funneled migrants through official ports of entry. There are many cases like this, even if the stats say the border counties are safer than other counties in the state. The problem still exists and is preventable.
Re:'Calling bullshit': the college class on how not to be du... by DoreenMichele on Wednesday April 17, 2019 @04:03PM (#19685970)
If they are illegal immigrants, what makes you think they would even cooperate with being funneled through official ports of entry?

We have official ports of entry. Building a wall might make it harder for illegals to cross, but they already face substantial barriers. Some of them die every single year while crossing the desert on foot or taking other risks.

Re:'Calling bullshit': the college class on how not to be du... by s_y_n_t_a_x on Wednesday April 17, 2019 @06:42PM (#19687078)
The idea is to not give them a choice whether or not they take the official port of entry, it's to make it the only option.

Currently the border either has a low height fence that can be climbed over, holes that can be crawled under, or no fencing at all. We should install the proposed wall with surveillance.

After crossing the desert there aren't many people that will be able to scale a 30 foot steel fence. The current design can't be dug under or destroyed in a reasonable time.

The sections that have gone up have drastically reduced crossings.

https://www.dhs.gov/news/2018/12/12/walls-work

"For example, when we installed a border wall in the Yuma Sector, we have seen border apprehensions decrease by 90 percent."

"On Sunday, when a violent mob of 1,000 people stormed our Southern border, we found the newly constructed portions of the wall to be very effective. In the area of the breach, a group of people tore a hole in the old landing mat fence constructed decades ago and pushed across the border. U.S. Border Patrol agents who responded to the area ultimately dispersed the crowd, which had become assaultive, and apprehended several individuals. All of the individuals were either apprehended or retreated into Mexico. That evening, the fence was repaired. There were no breaches along the newly constructed border wall areas."

Re:'Calling bullshit': the college class on how not to be du... by DoreenMichele on Wednesday April 17, 2019 @10:53PM (#19688361)
I don't happen to agree with your position concerning the wall.

But your account is relatively new. I wish you well in figuring out how to more effectively navigate conversation here.

Re:'Calling bullshit': the college class on how not to be du... by s_y_n_t_a_x on Thursday April 18, 2019 @06:23PM (#19695331)
I'm curious with what aspect of the wall you disagree with.

What would you consider a more effective conversational policy? Conforming to the same political beliefs?

Re:'Calling bullshit': the college class on how not to be du... by DoreenMichele on Thursday April 18, 2019 @07:02PM (#19695542)
If you haven't read the guidelines and FAQ, those are good places to start.
Re:'Calling bullshit': the college class on how not to be du... by CompanionCuuube on Wednesday April 17, 2019 @06:37PM (#19687048)
> edit: downvoting doesn't make the problem go away.

It does, if the problem is the public perception rather than the reality on the ground.

Re:'Calling bullshit': the college class on how not to be du... by seppin on Wednesday April 17, 2019 @12:05PM (#19683779)
> Border towns are very unsafe right now

They have been for years, mostly because of drug traffickers and mafia types. That hasn't changed.

Re:'Calling bullshit': the college class on how not to be du... by antipropaganda on Wednesday April 17, 2019 @11:55AM (#19683674)
It is telling that you chose only right leaning outlets in your example. Even left leaning outlets like New York Times has admitted that liberals sometimes peddle fake news : https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/14/business/economy/income-t...
Re:'Calling bullshit': the college class on how not to be du... by rootusrootus on Wednesday April 17, 2019 @12:12PM (#19683848)
Fox News is an easy target because of their motto. I wonder if that was originally conceived as satire.
Re:'Calling bullshit': the college class on how not to be du... by Graphon1 on Wednesday April 17, 2019 @12:18PM (#19683912)
I guess you're referring to "Fair and Balanced". That was retired a few years ago... if you can believe NY Magazine. :) http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2017/06/fox-news-is-dropping-...
Re:'Calling bullshit': the college class on how not to be du... by rootusrootus on Wednesday April 17, 2019 @12:43PM (#19684146)
Yep, that's what I was thinking of. Didn't realize they actually stopped using it. I haven't watched TV in many years, I am falling behind the times.

A quick Google search suggests they now say "most watched most trusted" instead. That seems more like the garden variety lying-with-an-element-of-truth I expect to see from an entertainment news source.

Re:'Calling bullshit': the college class on how not to be du... by bufferoverflow on Wednesday April 17, 2019 @01:22PM (#19684501)
There are a plenty of youtube videos of people getting attacked trying to go to these no-go zones. Merkel openly admitted to Germany having them too.