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Re:Why Drug Prices Keep Rising Despite Congress's Efforts by duxup on Monday April 08, 2019 @11:10AM (#19605871)
I'm not really sure there is much in the way of "efforts".

The drug companies now control and manipulate the market. One law here or there won't fix it.

I think the larger question is if congress wants to effectively break the market and if the politicians want to take on the task of rewriting a lot of law / taking on the drug companies.

Re:Why Drug Prices Keep Rising Despite Congress's Efforts by maxxxxx on Monday April 08, 2019 @11:22AM (#19605999)
Whatever they will be doing will end like Obamacare. There may be some changes around the edges but the fundamental problems of US healthcare won’t even be touched. The incumbents are way too entrenched and their propaganda is very successful with a lot of citizens.
Re:Why Drug Prices Keep Rising Despite Congress's Efforts by peteey on Monday April 08, 2019 @12:13PM (#19606516)
US forced insurance seems like part of the problem. From the article, the response to "when did drug prices ratchet ups" was "when prescription drug coverage became part of Medicare"

This singular problem point was completely ignored by the rest of the article and in the proposed solutions.

It seems like no matter what drug companies charge, our government MUST pay it. And citizens not covered by the government MUST buy health insurance. The ACA says it is illegal for you not to buy coverage; if you don't there is a fine. If you to not pay this fine (individual responsibility tax), you go to jail.

The case of Nelene Fox shows that HMOs MUST pay for anything, even unreasonable procedures for terminally ill patients.

How can the market function when you MUST PAY?

Re:Why Drug Prices Keep Rising Despite Congress's Efforts by maxxxxx on Monday April 08, 2019 @12:21PM (#19606591)
The ban on Medicare negotiating drug prices was a nice giveaway for the companies by the Bush administration. But this can be changed anytime if the is political will.
Re:Why Drug Prices Keep Rising Despite Congress's Efforts by nagVenkat on Monday April 08, 2019 @11:30AM (#19606102)
Lot of incumbent democrats lost their seats in 2010 after voting for Obamacare.
Re:Why Drug Prices Keep Rising Despite Congress's Efforts by Dirlewanger on Monday April 08, 2019 @11:54AM (#19606338)
Don't have the data, but I'm willing to bet part of the reason is probably because a lot of people that didn't have an insurance plan before Obamacare now were forced to lest they pay the penalty; that's all the ACA really is anyway: a glorified mandate saying one had to pick private insurance from the government's limited marketplace or they'll be fined. Didn't solve dick...but hey, Obama did it so it must be progress!
Re:Why Drug Prices Keep Rising Despite Congress's Efforts by maxxxxx on Monday April 08, 2019 @12:02PM (#19606417)
The change how preexisting conditions are handled was huge. Before Obamacare it was really hard to get and keep health insurance for people with chronic conditions. Unfortunately it seems the current administration wants to go back to these “glory days”
Re:Why Drug Prices Keep Rising Despite Congress's Efforts by scarface74 on Monday April 08, 2019 @01:11PM (#19607060)
As opposed to the way it was before where if you didn’t have insurance , you could go to the emergency room and they still had to treat you?
Re:Why Drug Prices Keep Rising Despite Congress's Efforts by astazangasta on Monday April 08, 2019 @11:33AM (#19606132)
One point I would like everyone to keep top of mind in this conversation: a patent monopoly is not a market. Prices are dictated by the government, which will arrest anyone besides the patent holder who tries to sell. In this case the price is set to "whatever the drug company wants to charge", but it could as well be set to $0 if the government so desired.
Re:Why Drug Prices Keep Rising Despite Congress's Efforts by LyndsySimon on Monday April 08, 2019 @12:30PM (#19606688)
> Prices are dictated by the government, which will arrest anyone besides the patent holder who tries to sell.

I'd like to challenge this. Yes, the patent system allows for a time-limited monopoly for the inventor of a drug - but it does not, to my knowledge, in any way "dictate prices" for that drug. That is up to the owner of the patent, who rationally will optimize for profit.

Optimizing for profit does not mean "charging as much as possible", either; it means "charging the amount resulting in the highest net profit". There is the supply and demand curve to take into account here.

Re:Why Drug Prices Keep Rising Despite Congress's Efforts by dan678 on Monday April 08, 2019 @02:57PM (#19608036)
Unfortunately, optimizing for profit still puts too many people in a position where they go bankrupt or die because of lack of funds. It's not theory, this is happening today in the United States. We need reform.
Re:Why Drug Prices Keep Rising Despite Congress's Efforts by okr on Monday April 08, 2019 @03:35PM (#19608329)
I agree in general. But lets not forget, without the incentive to make profit, someone would not have done the investment and work to invent something in the first place. So some treatment would not even exist at all.
Re:Why Drug Prices Keep Rising Despite Congress's Efforts by dan678 on Monday April 08, 2019 @05:33PM (#19609265)
I really dislike that argument. It seems to say that, without incentive of making profit, no great progress would be made. It's such a pessimistic view of humanity. Many great people have done amazing things with little to no regard of fame or fortune. I'm not denouncing capitalism, but jesus christ, can we acknowledge that blind pursuit of profit is starting to damage society as a whole.
Re:Why Drug Prices Keep Rising Despite Congress's Efforts by okr on Monday April 08, 2019 @05:53PM (#19609424)
It seems to say that, but i did not say that.

Each invention or each venture needs resources. Where do you get those from? One can say, people give something and out of this pot you support something bigger (taxes? charity? venture capital?) , and those who have the idea, the skill, the howto, they go for them. And everyone of them has to support their own families too. So all in all, society gets a profit by having people creating treatment, workers get their profit (time+skill for money), investors get a profit and owners maybe get an overproportial share of, what is being paid for it.

I do not understand how this is a pessmistic view. I just see a lot of people being productive?

But i admit, it is an ideal. In generally i also only hear all the bad stories.

Re:Why Drug Prices Keep Rising Despite Congress's Efforts by rayiner on Monday April 08, 2019 @11:58AM (#19606379)
Yes and no. A patent exchanges short term protection for long term commoditization of the invention, which permits not only a market, but an extremely competitive one (because the invention has been documented and disseminated).
Re:Why Drug Prices Keep Rising Despite Congress's Efforts by post_break on Monday April 08, 2019 @11:27AM (#19606064)
Serious question, if laws won't fix it, how does India do it? From my very limited understanding India doesn't have these high costs?
Re:Why Drug Prices Keep Rising Despite Congress's Efforts by leakybit on Monday April 08, 2019 @01:09PM (#19607038)
The actual cost of manufacturing the drug is tiny, so pharma companies have a lot of freedom to price their drugs to target a market segment.
Re:Why Drug Prices Keep Rising Despite Congress's Efforts by duxup on Monday April 08, 2019 @11:44AM (#19606239)
I'm not saying laws won't fix it. I'm saying one law here or there will not. Most congressional efforts have been with minor twists in the law hoping things work out.
Re:Why Drug Prices Keep Rising Despite Congress's Efforts by b_tterc_p on Monday April 08, 2019 @11:39AM (#19606184)
They manufacture their own drugs piggy-backing off American R&D and then sell them for much much smaller margins.

America's lucrative drug market funds research which allows the rest of the world to benefit at no cost to them.

Edit: seem to be getting downvoted because people think I’m saying drug companies do this out of benevolence. Not my intention. I’m saying that wrenching maximum dollars out of America but having little ability to capture returns elsewhere is a mechanism by which new drugs are created and later manufactured as foreign generics

Re:Why Drug Prices Keep Rising Despite Congress's Efforts by saiya-jin on Monday April 08, 2019 @11:55AM (#19606349)
That is only partially true - real costs of drugs say in Switzerland are properly astronomical (don't know their comparison to US but would expect same or higher).

But we have pretty effective medical insurance - after paying initial yearly sum, insurance kicks in and covers 90% of the costs. No massive incomprehensible bureaucracy and fooling around with various charges. It doesn't matter what your employer is, you pay it yourself, it covers you no matter the age, status or existing state.

It can still be costly to encounter something serious, some other countries cover 100% of the costs (but question is the quality and speed of treatment, because if its free, old people with tons of mostly incurable ailments can easily flood the system). If it can properly ruin you, social system steps in.

Re:Why Drug Prices Keep Rising Despite Congress's Efforts by otikik on Monday April 08, 2019 @12:19PM (#19606565)
> America's lucrative drug market funds research

That's a nice and heartwarming story. But I don't believe it for a second. When those companies want to fund research, they raise money from third parties. Or get it from the government in the form of grants.

No, all that money goes to someone's pocket, and mostly stays there.

Re:Why Drug Prices Keep Rising Despite Congress's Efforts by refurb on Monday April 08, 2019 @12:24PM (#19606623)
When those companies want to fund research, they raise money from third parties.

Not the big companies. R&D is funded through the sales of current products.

Re:Why Drug Prices Keep Rising Despite Congress's Efforts by secabeen on Monday April 08, 2019 @12:26PM (#19606645)
They do spend some of their patient revenue on R&D, but they spend more on consumer and physician marketing.
Re:Why Drug Prices Keep Rising Despite Congress's Efforts by jonlucc on Monday April 08, 2019 @12:49PM (#19606844)
Should they not? Ignoring money, if you have a product which has been shown to improve lives or increase lifespan, shouldn't you aim to make it as available as possible? In general, pharmaceuticals have to prove some benefit over the current standard of care to convince payers (insurance companies) to pay for the drug.

Disclaimer: I work in big pharma, though in discovery research, nowhere near pricing and business decisions. Of course, in my position, it would be great if all pharma invested more in R&D

Re:Why Drug Prices Keep Rising Despite Congress's Efforts by secabeen on Monday April 08, 2019 @01:15PM (#19607097)
I'm not objecting to all marketing spending, but I do think it's out of line with the benefit. I would prefer to see prescription marketing be much more low-touch that it is today.
Re:Why Drug Prices Keep Rising Despite Congress's Efforts by jonlucc on Monday April 08, 2019 @01:19PM (#19607126)
Me too. I had a manager once suggest that you could set up a consortium of pharma companies based around a disease. So, for example, every company that has a drug targeted at psoriasis would buy in, then the consortium would be tasked with raising awareness that psoriasis is a treatable condition, so go talk to your doctor. Of course it has some flaws (what about companies that are first into an indication), but it might be a step better than what we have today.
Re:Why Drug Prices Keep Rising Despite Congress's Efforts by secabeen on Monday April 08, 2019 @02:34PM (#19607842)
Interesting. Very much like the milk boards and other agricultural councils that promote specific largely-fungible products.
Re:Why Drug Prices Keep Rising Despite Congress's Efforts by kranner on Monday April 08, 2019 @12:15PM (#19606526)
Indian generics are manufactured under licensing deals with the patent holders. The operation is still profitable for the patent holders because of volumes although the Indian compulsory license act allows this negotiation to happen in the first place.

Indian companies can’t just manufacture patented drugs without a license. There is a judicial process to follow beginning with negotiations with the original patent holder. Only if the patent holder refuses to grant a license and the local manufacturer aspirant can prove there will be a public health crisis without the drug will the courts grant permission to bypass the patent.

http://www.mondaq.com/india/x/772644/Patent/Compulsory+Licen...

https://undark.org/article/hepatitis-c-sub-sofosbuvir-india/

Re:Why Drug Prices Keep Rising Despite Congress's Efforts by b_tterc_p on Monday April 08, 2019 @12:27PM (#19606658)
Technically yes, but the fact that a backdoor exists means American patent holders need to make the deal particularly sweet to Indian generics. Sure they still profit because they’re just licensing and getting economic rent. They could be making way more if this system were not in place.

It’s probably better for the world if they lean even further from patents.

Re:Why Drug Prices Keep Rising Despite Congress's Efforts by maxxxxx on Monday April 08, 2019 @11:59AM (#19606392)
“America's lucrative drug market funds research which allows the rest of the world to benefit at no cost to them.”

I think it’s more likely that it funds higher profits for the companies and all the middlemen. This is just self serving propaganda by the pharmaceutical companies.

Re:Why Drug Prices Keep Rising Despite Congress's Efforts by b_tterc_p on Monday April 08, 2019 @12:20PM (#19606587)
I think you’re misreading my comment. Obviously the drug companies aren’t doing this with good intentions for poorer countries, but it is a byproduct effect.
Re:Why Drug Prices Keep Rising Despite Congress's Efforts by maxxxxx on Monday April 08, 2019 @12:38PM (#19606768)
Personally I think the main byproduct is higher profits, not more research.
Re:Why Drug Prices Keep Rising Despite Congress's Efforts by kevin_thibedeau on Monday April 08, 2019 @02:17PM (#19607681)
The American drug market funds third and fourth homes for the C-levels.