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Re:The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally M... by AnthonyMouse on Thursday April 04, 2019 @01:15PM (#19574734)
> Every other city's experience with congestion pricing shows decreased car use in favor of alternatives.

Suppose the forest is on fire and instead of spending money to put the fire out, we just ignore it. Then a bunch of wolves come into the city to flee from the fire.

Someone suggests that we introduce bears to the city in order to drive out the wolves. Many people point out what a terrible idea that is, but some cities do it anyway. Then the proponents point out that some of the wolves have fled back to the forest.

But now your city is full of bears. And the surrounding forest is still on fire.

> Effects on local grocery prices were minimal.

This is cost disease in a nutshell. "We did this one thing that was a bad idea, but the net effect was small, so that makes it alright." What's the cumulative effect of using that logic as a general principle?

> And in the end, revenues paled in comparison to the health, infrastructure, policing, quality of life and economic costs of traffic congestion.

Compared to the untenable status quo, or compared to the better alternatives?

When the status quo is a dumpster fire, "this is better than a dumpster fire" is not a very high bar.

Re:The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally M... by perennate on Thursday April 04, 2019 @01:44PM (#19575049)
So, what is the better alternative? Doubling the number of roads? Building ten or so elevated highways crisscrossing Manhattan?
Re:The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally M... by AnthonyMouse on Thursday April 04, 2019 @02:06PM (#19575300)
Build more housing in cities so that more people can live there instead of having to commute in. Eliminate minimum parking requirements so that pedestrian-oriented neighborhoods can exist. Fund mass transit with taxes and eliminate fares to create a cost advantage over driving which is progressive rather than regressive.
Re:The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally M... by mjevans on Thursday April 04, 2019 @02:22PM (#19575486)
Probably some mixture of the following tactics.

## Fix the subway (by which I mean make it more like Japan's rail):

  * Make loitering illegal, enforce it
  * A 'short loop' everything recorded space
    This is anti-vandalism / for crimes within a day
  * Since this is the US, safety barrier the train
  * In-city Automated circuits, automated schedule.
There'd also need to be baked in maintenance, but I'm not an expert in subway repair so I'm not sure what's actually required vs nice to have. If the subway is down, surface buses should run to replace it.

## An interface between the subway and the rest of the world:

Large parking silos close enough to the city to be on the subway grid (with good service), BUT, far enough out to have good use of the land. These too should have somewhat short loop subservience for security (maybe a 7-day rotation here). Parking can be charged for, but it should be less than the cost of having an automated driver take you in to the city, drop you off, and pick you up later.

## Every-day Freight backhaul:

As a transportation utility, during the more downtime hours the subway could be used by semi-automated transport cars to route pallets (or a replacement transfer unit) of things classified in several storage classes: Frozen, Refrigerated, 'room temp', not conditioned, 'special'. (Special being an un-conditioned, but ventilated with normal air, room that provides power for local regulation.) The transfer pods would be ferried along normal subway lines between cars during the downtimes. The stops would probably mostly be off of the normal ones, but exceptions might be made. Nearby storage rooms would receive the contents and buffer them. Those rooms are a city owned public utility (somewhat like paid parking spaces are now). Again, subservience on short loop, with added restricted access via RFID fobs and needing to show faces. Automated logging of who's checking in and which pallets they're taking out. At this point they may be close enough to hand/forklift transport, or maybe form an airport luggage style electric powered tram delivery.

## Reducing friction of desired transport methods:

Probably the free# (for people; #paid for with taxes) transport, and keeping the costs of the last-mile backhaul minimal for commercial ideas would be the biggest reduction. The increased patrols, and automated subservience backup (to trace fault after humans identify issues) are also supposed to reduce friction. In the narrative I've setup the civil enforcers are only supposed to be providing help, not hassling random people asking for papers.

Re:The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally M... by wan23 on Thursday April 04, 2019 @03:30PM (#19576209)
I'm not sure any of your "Fix the subway" suggestions does anything useful except the last one, which isn't as easy as it sounds.
Re:The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally M... by tokyodude on Thursday April 04, 2019 @07:54PM (#19578322)
make it more like Japan means privatizing the public transportation and giving the companies running the lines the ability to buy and own real estate in and around the stations as well as not giving all lines to one company
Re:The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally M... by dsfyu404ed on Thursday April 04, 2019 @02:42PM (#19575718)
Making the MTA suck less sounds like a good alternative.
Re:The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally M... by jellicle on Thursday April 04, 2019 @01:31PM (#19574918)
Yes, urging people to walk/cycle/bus instead of driving around in single-passenger cars is exactly the same as filling your city with bears.
Re:The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally M... by AnthonyMouse on Thursday April 04, 2019 @02:03PM (#19575274)
> Yes, urging people to walk/cycle/bus instead of driving around in single-passenger cars is exactly the same as filling your city with bears.

If someone says that managing programmers is like herding cats, retorting that programmers are not exactly the same as cats is not very helpful.

What is your actual counterargument? Why should we make driving worse instead of making alternatives to driving better?

Re:The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally M... by sjy on Friday April 05, 2019 @06:50PM (#19587771)
Your confusing analogy about bears and wolves was the counterargument. I didn't find it a persuasive response to the original argument: "Every other city's experience with congestion pricing shows decreased car use in favor of alternatives. Effects on local grocery prices were minimal. And in the end, revenues paled in comparison to the health, infrastructure, policing, quality of life and economic costs of traffic congestion."
Re:The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally M... by jaxbot on Thursday April 04, 2019 @01:45PM (#19575069)
As someone who attends community board meetings in Manhattan, this seems to be the average attendee's opinion too.