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Re:Solar and storage projects drive utility-scale deployment... by sandworm101 on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @12:58PM (#19564997)
I don't understant why LI-ion batteries are being used in such locations. They are definitely better in terms of energy density, but when size/weight isn't a concern, why are oldschool lead acid batteries not competitive? They are cheap, well-understood, and easily recyclable at end of life. Lithiums are more expensive and difficult to recycle. I understand why they are favored in vehicles, but for massive grid installs?
Re:Solar and storage projects drive utility-scale deployment... by Robotbeat on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @01:21PM (#19565207)
Lead acids have very poor cycle life compared to lithium ion, unless you only use a small amount of their capacity such that the usable cost per kWh between the two are nearly the same.... but lithium ion prices have continued to reduce such that the usable price per kWh for lithium ion is now lower.

Additionally, the round trip efficiency of lithium ion batteries is higher than lead acid. Plus, the added weight of lead acid further increases installation costs. So when all is said and done, lithium ion is now superior to lead acid for grid storage.

Exceptions exist when the simplicity of managing a lead acid battery comes into play. Lithium ion batteries need to be babied. Lead acid can be just thrown onto a DC power bus.

Re:Solar and storage projects drive utility-scale deployment... by calvertdw on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @04:11PM (#19566844)
Just wondering: Is the environmental impact upon decommissioning a consideration? I'm not sure what important variables are involved in that.
Re:Solar and storage projects drive utility-scale deployment... by toomuchtodo on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @01:11PM (#19565102)
"Lithium-ion has significantly higher cycle life than lead acid in deep discharge applications. The disparity is further increased as ambient temperatures increase. The cycle life of each chemistry can be increased by limiting the depth of discharge (DoD), discharge rate, and temperature, but lead acid is generally much more sensitive to each of these factors."

"When determining what capacity of battery to use for a system, a critical consideration for lead acid is how long the system will take to discharge. The shorter the discharge period, the less capacity is available from the lead acid battery."

https://www.batterypoweronline.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/0...

Re:Solar and storage projects drive utility-scale deployment... by sandworm101 on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @01:58PM (#19565563)
I'm not sure I agree with that website, especially given that it is written by a company that only sells lithium batteries. Lead acid batteries, just like lithiums, can be configured many different ways. Where two batteries have the same physical dimensions, the lithium can be discharged more quickly. But at the same price point the much larger lead battery can pump out the same energy just as fast. "Discharge period" is a matter for vehicles, a use case where you want to maximize available power/weight. But on a grid it is reasonable to run batteries that never fully discharge, that never go below say 50% of their total capacity.

For me, the biggest selling point for lead acid remains that the technology is beyond IP issues. I am suspicious of any statement by manufacturers that tout proprietary tech over older publicly-available solutions.

Re:Solar and storage projects drive utility-scale deployment... by toomuchtodo on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @02:33PM (#19565943)
We could argue the technical merits, but with 100s of GWs of lithium battery storage manufacturing capacity coming online over the next 2-3 years, I'd say the market has spoken.

If you want to use lead acid (flooded or sealed) in your home battery shed for off grid or backup power, and you don't have an aggressive duty cycle, it's a fine solution.