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Re:French ISPs Ordered to Block Sci-Hub and LibGen by dTal on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @06:59AM (#19552785)
More like hundreds of man-years, when you factor in all the editions, bootlegs etc that are now forever lost to time.

This should be a golden age for information preservation. Instead it's a dark age. I personally know several eye-wateringly good bands whose catalogs are not available anywhere, at all.

Re:French ISPs Ordered to Block Sci-Hub and LibGen by derefr on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @10:55AM (#19554739)
Given that those were torrent sites, they weren’t hosting the content. The individuals seeding the content still likely have copies of it. They just have no easy, obvious place to share it where they won’t get in trouble for doing so... for now. But if such a technology shows up later, the (already ripped and preserved) content might just show back up along with it.
Re:French ISPs Ordered to Block Sci-Hub and LibGen by Bartweiss on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @12:25PM (#19555840)
This is a good point; it's amazing what's still out there. Bitrot does set in over time, though, and the less distributed a work is the worse its odds of living through each new tech transition. I've known people who still have cassette recordings of concerts that are publicly considered "lost". Hopefully they digitize and back up, but not all of them will.

Even the brief bloom of the torrent and sharing scene was incredible, though. Scarce works that circulate manually are in near-constant jeopardy, because every new copy takes new effort. But a whole lot of unique content, from jam-band tapes to obscure translated books, just showed up on torrent sites and got shared widely. Even if it's inaccessible at the moment, that stretch may have spawned enough copies to endure across the next few transitions.

Re:French ISPs Ordered to Block Sci-Hub and LibGen by derefr on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @04:20PM (#19558185)
> Bitrot does set in over time, though, and the less distributed a work is the worse its odds of living through each new tech transition.

Eh, I feel like we've almost fully gotten away from bit-rot. Bit-rot was a problem because individuals don't bother to go to the effort of constant IT administration, and don't have the economies of scale required to afford good data redundancy.

But individuals don't have to back things up "personally" any more. With one command, I can send three copies of any file to three object-storage providers. Each one (according to the Dynamo architecture, which they mostly all implement) is holding 17 copies of the data on 17 shards, and replaces copies from the good ones whenever they go bad. Each provider's copies only exist in one region, but the region is different for each provider selected. As individual object-storage providers die, I can find new ones and sync my data over from the surviving ones. As long as "cloud [redundant] object storage" as a concept exists, I won't have to do much at all to ensure continued integrity of my data. All the details—including porting my data to new physical substrates when old formats die—are being handled under the abstraction, and converted into (tiny!) monthly fees that are lower than what even a zero-redundancy tape library would cost me.

And, of course, the data I'm sending is encrypted, and not even with a symmetric key, but rather a PKI key where the decryption half of the key is held in cold storage (i.e. in hardcopy base64 in a safety deposit box at a bank; and a few other places.) If I'm uploading rips of something copyrighted, nobody will ever know that but me. I'll be able to get the data back out when the time comes to dust it off and share it.

Re:French ISPs Ordered to Block Sci-Hub and LibGen by Mediterraneo10 on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @04:42PM (#19558370)
In the HD movie torrent community – people sharing full Blu-ray images – a person’s collection can run into the many terabytes. My own collection amounts to 8TB and is only content I have watched personally and am interested in, while torrent communities greatly benefit from obsessive hoarders who download and seed content beyond their personal interests. There is no economical solution to back up that much data on the cloud, and bitrot does set in.
Re:French ISPs Ordered to Block Sci-Hub and LibGen by derefr on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @05:40PM (#19558854)
If you're not spending at least as much money (+ labor opportunity-cost) on your own data-storage solution as it costs to back the data up to the cloud, your data isn't safe.
Re:French ISPs Ordered to Block Sci-Hub and LibGen by komali2 on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @11:31AM (#19555189)
The /r/datahoarder subreddit is full of people like this. I'm happy they exist, if nothing else so at least there may be a digital record of our civilization if it's destroyed.
Re:French ISPs Ordered to Block Sci-Hub and LibGen by nerdponx on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @01:13PM (#19556405)
"Data hoarding" along these lines is, IMO, an admirable use of time and money, and I wish that I had more of both so I could participate. One day I hope to.
Re:French ISPs Ordered to Block Sci-Hub and LibGen by StavrosK on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @11:52AM (#19555460)
Is there any technical reason we can't make a distributed tracker/community like what.cd, given that torrents are already distributed and ZeroNet et al exist? All we'd need is the forums and ratio bookkeeping.
Re:French ISPs Ordered to Block Sci-Hub and LibGen by yipbub on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @07:10AM (#19552841)
Could you give me an example?
Re:French ISPs Ordered to Block Sci-Hub and LibGen by dTal on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @08:31AM (#19553318)
Sure. Mooi were formed in 1999, split in 2006, made a bunch of great music in between, and all that remains is this one song on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gF5cP8S0zOk

The masters still exist, I'm told, but that's no good to anyone - they won't be re-released because it would require too much intellectual property wrangling and nobody cares enough to bother, and sooner or later that hard drive will die and that will be that.

Re:French ISPs Ordered to Block Sci-Hub and LibGen by xhrpost on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @11:24AM (#19555091)
That's a shame. Looks like this one song managed to get on Google Play: https://play.google.com/music/m/Thsq5haec2ixuguqiep4bnfzcmi?...
Re:French ISPs Ordered to Block Sci-Hub and LibGen by CydeWeys on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @11:40AM (#19555301)
Did they ever release their music on CDs? If so, surely some of those CDs are still out there somewhere and could be ripped, if only they could be tracked down. I guess that just hasn't happened yet though.
Re:French ISPs Ordered to Block Sci-Hub and LibGen by Simon_says on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @10:03AM (#19554170)
That's great song. Thanks for getting me interested in a band I can't torrent.

Edit: Wait. Am I part of the problem?

Re:French ISPs Ordered to Block Sci-Hub and LibGen by Raphmedia on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @10:39AM (#19554544)
"Formed in 1999, Mooi are duo Rachel Lloyd and Laura Dickinson. The pair write heartfelt and intimate songs, with both members playing guitars and singing."

If you want more, look either of them up.

Re:French ISPs Ordered to Block Sci-Hub and LibGen by jacquesm on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @09:37AM (#19553887)
Mooi! Thank you for that link.
Re:French ISPs Ordered to Block Sci-Hub and LibGen by Bartweiss on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @12:38PM (#19556008)
What.cd hosted, among other things, three unpublished Salinger stories. They were swiftly taken down by the site hosts over demands from his estate, but narrowly made it onto BitTorrent and other sites, and are still available today.

Meanwhile, a lot of unique live-concert recordings (often made with the band's permission, unlike the Salinger tapes) vanished with the demise of What.CD. Presumably some people still have them, if bit rot hasn't caught up, but they simply ceased to be available.

I'm not sure these ever landed on torrent sites, but the first album from Godspeed You! Black Emperor is considered lost, and Eminem's debut EP was unavailable for more than a decade. Both are (early-)digital-era works, which raises interesting questions about the fragility of even modern content. The archive-less disappearance of quite a few online short stories, flash games, and Soundcloud tracks makes me suspect that in a few decades, quite a few more "first works" of notable creators will be unavailable.

Re:French ISPs Ordered to Block Sci-Hub and LibGen by AnaniasAnanas on Thursday April 04, 2019 @11:42PM (#19579503)
This is the negative of private invite-only trackers like what.cd. If they end up closing a lot of data gets dies with them. In contrast to that piratebay and nyaa.pantsu regularly upload their databases and there are even offline database readers for them.
Re:French ISPs Ordered to Block Sci-Hub and LibGen by Bartweiss on Friday April 05, 2019 @01:53PM (#19585251)
This is very true, yeah.

Years ago, I was on a university private tracker. It was used more to share hard-to-find resources than for any actual piracy, much less piracy of anything new or policed. (I'm sure people stole plenty of 50-year-old textbook PDFs.) But when the hoster shut it down abruptly, everything simply vanished, including all kinds of hand-scanned and annotated stuff which may be literally irreplaceable.

Meanwhile, something like Kickass Torrents can be shut down and abandoned by the owners, but the content all reappears almost immediately. The private-tracker model has lots of advantages for community building, but as far as robustness it undermines the entire concept of P2P sharing.

Re:French ISPs Ordered to Block Sci-Hub and LibGen by yardie on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @01:21PM (#19556468)
I still have a 56kbps MP3 copy of Eminem’s first EP sent to me, pre-Napster, over AIM. I didn’t even realize it wasn’t unavailable until this post. And my son loves Eminem.
Re:French ISPs Ordered to Block Sci-Hub and LibGen by Bartweiss on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @03:44PM (#19557865)
It looks like some copies hit the open internet around 2009, and a few of the songs has been remastered as promotional gimmicks. But yeah, I remember looking a bunch of years ago and finding that the title and one other song (Open Mic, maybe?) were the only things in circulation.

It's sort of funny to see that even something released post-internet can float in and out of availability like that. I generally class recent content as "lost" or "available", but obviously there's still a third category.

Re:French ISPs Ordered to Block Sci-Hub and LibGen by MereInterest on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @10:09AM (#19554232)
As a non-music example (and please somebody prove me wrong), I cannot find the 1954 movie "So This is Paris", starring Tony Curtis. No copies available anywhere on amazon, ebay, or searching through internet sites. There was a short clip of one of the songs on Youtube a few years ago, but it was taken down for copyright infringement. I simply cannot find it anywhere.
Re:French ISPs Ordered to Block Sci-Hub and LibGen by Dirlewanger on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @09:56AM (#19554080)
what.cd. I only used it sparingly, but apparently they had a lot of rare releases that existed nowhere else. Vanished overnight with the feds taking it down.
Re:French ISPs Ordered to Block Sci-Hub and LibGen by layoutIfNeeded on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @12:54PM (#19556206)
Actually it was a reverse proxy that was taken down, and they didn’t even target what.cd, it was collateral damage. The admins got scared nevertheless and pulled the plug.
Re:French ISPs Ordered to Block Sci-Hub and LibGen by mcs_ on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @07:51AM (#19553050)
Not sure if it applies but... The entire Google plus.
Re:French ISPs Ordered to Block Sci-Hub and LibGen by vanderZwan on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @11:35AM (#19555243)
> More like hundreds of man-years

Yes, I just noticed I accidentally dropped the "of thousands" part while writing my comments.

Re:French ISPs Ordered to Block Sci-Hub and LibGen by lucasverra on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @07:44AM (#19553020)
agreed : "too much information kills information"