News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:The ETF Tax Dodge by sokoloff on Sunday March 31, 2019 @12:33PM (#19536455)
Suppose you and I take $100K each and mutually invest 50:50 in something together. Maybe we bought two identical houses for $200K total (or even bought a duplex together). Later on, the houses have gone up in value to $300K, even later I decide that I want out, we look things over and decide that the fair thing is for me to take one of the houses. At the moment that we take that action, no tax is (nor ought to be, IMO) due.

Later, when/if I sell the house, tax is due on the $50K in gains. Just like in the ETF case.

In the alternate treatment seemingly contemplated by the article, we could instead agree to sell one of the houses, jointly pay taxes on $50K in gains, and give me the sum of $150K-taxes, the gains of which I'd pay taxes upon again. You'd also have effectively paid taxes when you hadn't done anything but invest and hold. There's a pretty good argument this is unfair to me (to tax me twice on one gain); there's an almost ironclad argument that it's unfair to you.

It's no surprise that the treatment that is both more reasonable and more profitable is the one that ETFs seek to implement.

(Fees and other weirdnesses around real-estate ignored above for simplicity.)

Re:The ETF Tax Dodge by URSpider94 on Sunday March 31, 2019 @12:58PM (#19536638)
You may decide that tax ought not to be due when you take one of the houses, but under the law it IS due. For me to take one of the houses, we would have to change the ownership structure and there would be a transfer price for that.
Re:The ETF Tax Dodge by sokoloff on Sunday March 31, 2019 @01:08PM (#19536716)
That's very much facts and circumstances dependent. As an example, if we individually purchase the property and form a partnership with that property (rather than the cash), a subsequent distribution of that property is not federally taxable (pub 541). Similarly, ownership changes relating to a divorce are generally not currently taxable.
Re:The ETF Tax Dodge by credit_guy on Sunday March 31, 2019 @01:05PM (#19536693)
> change the ownership structure and there would be a transfer price for that

The transfer price in gp’s example would be zero, wouldn’t it.

Re:The ETF Tax Dodge by URSpider94 on Sunday March 31, 2019 @05:46PM (#19538626)
Probably not. If the transfer price is zero, then that now becomes my tax basis in the property. So assuming again that I put in $100k originally, and now take out one house worth $150k, then sell it, I’m going to pay capital gains on the full $150k, not just my $50k gain.

What probably happens is that I sell you my share in the holding entity for $150k, and the entity sells me the house for $150k.

There are cases where you could simply dissolve the entity and distribute the assets, which would avoid the sale and resulting taxes, in which case you’re just re-titling it and not selling it.

Tl;dr: this gets complicated really quickly.

Re:The ETF Tax Dodge by skybrian on Sunday March 31, 2019 @02:19PM (#19537194)
I'm not seeing why this is paying tax on the same thing twice? You'd have a new cost basis, so you'd only pay again if it went up even more. Even if it's on the same property, that's a separate gain and this is effectively dividing a single large gain into two smaller gains, one of which happens earlier.

It seems like the question here is how long you can delay taxes on a capital gain. It doesn't seem particularly unfair if you can't always delay capital gains tax as long as you like?

Re:The ETF Tax Dodge by sokoloff on Sunday March 31, 2019 @02:52PM (#19537470)
My example conflates (or does not clearly distinguish between) partnerships (taxed as passthrough) and companies (taxed twice possibly). In the place I referenced taxed twice (only possible as a company), assume the federal rate on everything is 40% [to make the math forum-calculation-friendly].

Company starts with $200K, held 50:50 by two shareholders, losslessly buys two house for that, those go to $300K, company losslessly sells one of them for $150K, company pays $20K tax on $50K gain, and then owns a $150K house and $130K in cash. Shareholder B sells their 50% share in the company to shareholder A for $140K cash, realizing a $40K capital gain on their original shares investment [incurring $16K in taxes on the gain in their shares]. Shareholder A now owns all the shares with a basis of $240K for a company value of $280K.

I argue that Shareholder B’s economic interest in a single gain has been taxed twice.