In reference to animal byproducts like milk and eggs, my vegan friends say "it's not where it comes from, but how it's obtained."

I eat vegan food, but I also recognise that there's a distinction between someone keeping rescued chickens in a back garden, and keeping them in tiny cages or on the floor giant barns with no light in such crammed conditions that they start cannibalising each other (which are the conditions of about 90% of egg laying hens in the UK).

Even though I wouldn't eat their eggs, I can't really see the problem with having chicken around if they don't suffer. For people who eat vegan for ethical reasons, my impression is that suffering is the main concern.

It is, usually.

My point was that I find it surprising people with this position who "break" for medical or energy reasons don't generally arrive at the shellfish conclusion. They eat eggs, dairy, meat or fish.

Usually they consider stealing the eggs from the chickens to be incompatible with veganism as well, even if the chickens are free range.

Why? If they’re not fertilized eggs then the other option is letting them rot (or watch as mama chicken eats them, because contrary to our weird fantasies about the nature of nature, it is rough out there). Besides, it’s not theft, it’s a trade for food, security, and lodging.

> Besides, it’s not theft, it’s a trade for food, security, and lodging.

That sort of logic gets you back to farming animals for meat though. We're giving them a relatively cushy life compared to wild animals (at least in some cases), but cutting it short. It's easier to maintain the moral high ground if you simply cut out all animal products period.

So... eggs and honey are slippery slopes. Really. And vegans wonder why the public at large won’t engage with them?

May as well cut out all those vegetables & grains that are fertilized with animal byproducts as well.

It's not rational at that point anymore, it's almost religious.

What if the chickens give you the eggs?

Trouble is that there is no chicken alive capable of expressing with out a single trace of ambiguity such an intention.

I think they object to commercial fishing too so not sure how that helps. Or are shellfish farmable without damaging the area?

They are! In fact shellfish being filter feeders are often used to clean aquatic ecosystems and then maintain them. If done responsibly it’s a massive boon, and doin git responsibly is feasible and done at present. Farming shellfish is one of the few fish farm models that truly is better than the wild alternatives in terms of overall environmental impact.