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Re:On Internal Engineering Practices at Amazon by jhayward on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @01:50AM (#19498440)
> Containers are "bare metal"

Please explain this use of jargon. Are you saying that a Docker container is "bare metal" in some culture? A VM is bare metal? What do you mean by container, and bare metal?

Re:On Internal Engineering Practices at Amazon by m0zg on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @02:10AM (#19498504)
Containers are just namespaces for things within the Linux kernel. Unlike with VMs, you're not running separate instances of the OS, it's all run by just one kernel instance, and that kernel usually runs directly on the hardware, that is, on "bare metal". That "ubuntu" base image you can spin up does not actually run the Ubuntu kernel. As a result, bare metal containers incur none of the "virtualization penalty" that VMs do.

Cloud is, in fact, abnormal in terms of how containers are used in that it wraps them into VMs. That's in part because VMs were already there and they simplify provisioning of something that looks like "machines" from the outside, and in part because containers do not offer much in the way of security guarantees (precisely because all containers running on the same host share the kernel), whereas VMs do.

Re:On Internal Engineering Practices at Amazon by jhayward on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @04:38AM (#19498983)
Ah, you're using it to mean "no virtualization". Got it, thanks.

I tend to use the term to mean single-tenant, user-supplied OS, non-virtualized myself but I see where you're coming from.

Re:On Internal Engineering Practices at Amazon by richardwhiuk on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @05:26AM (#19499217)
All of that may be true as well - if the user picks the underlying OS (i.e. kernel) to run the container engine and installs on bare metal, then literally everything you wrote applies.
Re:On Internal Engineering Practices at Amazon by lunchables on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @09:16AM (#19500505)
My workstation runs multiple processes in multiple namespaces without containers. Is it bare metal? What if I install applications via flatpak? Still bare metal? Now what if I use docker?
Re:On Internal Engineering Practices at Amazon by scott_s on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @09:58AM (#19500822)
It's tempting to say that containers don't have any virtualization costs, but they often do for networking. For some applications, the addition of another networking driver doesn't matter. For others, it does.
Re:On Internal Engineering Practices at Amazon by m0zg on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @02:22PM (#19504202)
There is no "another networking driver" in containers. It's the same networking driver.
Re:On Internal Engineering Practices at Amazon by scott_s on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @11:41PM (#19509026)
For standard Docker container deployments, there is. See: https://docs.docker.com/network/
Re:On Internal Engineering Practices at Amazon by m0zg on Thursday March 28, 2019 @05:48AM (#19510664)
That's not a "driver" in the traditional sense, meaning it doesn't talk to the actual hardware directly. It's just a bridge or iptables.
Re:On Internal Engineering Practices at Amazon by scott_s on Thursday March 28, 2019 @03:34PM (#19515744)
shrug It's additional software in the networking stack, and it has a performance penalty. I think it's fair to call it a "virtualization cost," since you're paying for the container's networking abstraction.
Re:On Internal Engineering Practices at Amazon by umanwizard on Wednesday March 27, 2019 @02:11AM (#19498505)
I think GP meant in the sense that Docker containers are just normal programs whose instructions are being executed directly by the CPU (just like how my laptop is executing Firefox as I type this) without relying on hardware virtualization features.