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Re:WhatsApp co-founder accuses Facebook of trading privacy f... by derefr on Saturday March 16, 2019 @03:06AM (#19406722)
I see nothing hypocritical about good people taking payment from evil people. “Payment” means that the resources of the payer go down, and the resources of the payee go up. Now Facebook have less money that they can use to influence the world in stupid/evil ways, and the WhatsApp founders have more money they can use to influence the world in good ways.

And, in exchange, since Facebook now owns the service of WhatsApp, they have the adopted duty of popularizing it—a service that inherently resists the kind of centralized analytical approaches Facebook uses to make money, and steals users away from Facebook in ways that makes it harder for Facebook to track those same isers. Win/win for the WhatsApp founders’ perspective; lose/lose from Facebook’s perspective. It’s a wonder they went for it. (It’s sort of like if Google were to acquire Brave: all they’d get is a browser that steals Chrome users and inherently prevents Google from tracking them, that nobody would accept if it was turned into not-that, because that’s its whole thing.)

Re:WhatsApp co-founder accuses Facebook of trading privacy f... by Zanni on Saturday March 16, 2019 @03:30AM (#19406791)
It really doesn't though. Facebook paid for WhatsApp because it was worth more to them than money. Their resources and influence have increased.
Re:WhatsApp co-founder accuses Facebook of trading privacy f... by ves on Saturday March 16, 2019 @04:14AM (#19406912)
So they believe.
Re:WhatsApp co-founder accuses Facebook of trading privacy f... by derefr on Saturday March 16, 2019 @11:03AM (#19408153)
If there is an “evil” person/organization, that usually means that they have one or more terminal preferences that you would think of as evil. But they also probably have non-evil terminal preferences as well. And they’re just as likely to spend money to satisfy their non-evil terminal preferences as their evil ones.

Any transaction with an evil person/organization, that satisfies their non-evil terminal preferences, should be encouraged, because you’re decreasing the resources they have available to them to do evil with, without causing evil to happen.

Facebook bought WhatsApp because it increases the size of their social graph, sure. But if I consider “making statistical associations between people” a morally-neutral act, and “actively spying on the particular actions of individuals” to be an evil act, then “feeding” Facebook the WhatsApp social graph was, from my perspective, a setback on the pace of the evil they were doing. In an alternative world where they didn’t buy WhatsApp but instead just outcompeted it with Messenger and everyone switched from WhatsApp to Messenger, Facebook would have done more evil by spying on conversations that—in this world—it didn’t get to spy on, because they occurred in the interim period where they owned WhatsApp but hadn’t fully wiretapped it yet.

Sure, it will finish digesting WhatsApp and change it into something that allows them to spy on people. In the meantime, the WhatsApp founders are free of working for WhatsApp; and so could, theoretically, just build (or, more easily, invest in the creation of) another secure social network. And then trust people to just decide to abandon WhatsApp for its Facebook-owned-ness (like they’re already abandoning Messenger for its Facebook-owned-ness) and switch to it.

It’s a cycle: Facebook will probably make every successive competitor secure-chat network company an offer they can’t refuse, and absorb them. But this results in less evil being done to people than a world where those networks never existed in the first place; and, in the process, Facebook’s total revenue and market share (even including those acquisitions!) are shrinking, because they shed huge amounts of money for each acquisition, and the time they spend “digesting” these companies is time their employees have to spend doing redundant work—making a beach-head into data-legibility of these user-bases, rather than actively exploiting the data-legibility of the users they’ve got. In other words, these acquisitions are revenue-negative for the first year or two, because they can’t immediately shove their hooks in, and so there’s nothing there to immediately sell to advertisers.

The Roman Empire collapsed because it got too big and didn’t have its distant member states under its control. It couldn’t tax them, or use them as soldiers in its wars. In theory, you could have made it collapse faster, by accelerating the rate at which it acquired these loosely-held fringe member states.

Or, for another analogy: your liver only has so much garbage it can process from your body at once. Give it too much to do—too many molecules to xenometabolize and “absorb” into safe bodily molecules—and the result is called “septic shock.”

Acquisitions are a poison. You can do one or two at a time, but even then, they’ll slow you down; slow down the rate at which you act upon the stuff you fully control. And if you do too many of them, you’ll just keel over.

Personally, I want to feed Facebook as many companies as possible. Ideally, feed it companies where the founders then leave and build more companies to feed it, with the aim of extracting unbounded amounts of resources from—and continuously poisoning—the behemoth. (Heck, these acquired companies have employees that get absorbed, too. Hopefully they’re vetted by the founders as following their ethical precepts. If they are, then the founders are essentially air-dropping good people into Eviltopia—good people who the evilcorp can’t just clean-sweep out without stalling the acquired company. That’s even more “poison” it has to deal with, and even more revenue-negative delay.)

Re:WhatsApp co-founder accuses Facebook of trading privacy f... by kristianc on Saturday March 16, 2019 @03:46AM (#19406829)
Facebook uses WhatsApp’s social graph. They may not monitor the content of your messages but they do monitor who you’re talking to.
Re:WhatsApp co-founder accuses Facebook of trading privacy f... by keiferski on Saturday March 16, 2019 @03:58AM (#19406862)
This is silly. There is zero reason why Facebook can’t slowly erode whatever features of WhatsApp that don’t conform to the Facebook plan. They own it now.

If you want to make moral stands and gestures, don’t sell out. It’s not that complicated.

Re:WhatsApp co-founder accuses Facebook of trading privacy f... by DATACOMMANDER on Saturday March 16, 2019 @03:32AM (#19406796)
This may be the most elaborate rationalization of selling out I’ve ever read.
Re:WhatsApp co-founder accuses Facebook of trading privacy f... by derefr on Saturday March 16, 2019 @11:28AM (#19408288)
No, I’ve got a better one, actually!

Lotteries are a net benefit for society, because they transfer money from irrational people (ticket buyers) to rational people (lottery runners.) Even if the lottery-runners are not good people†, the fact that they’re rational means that they’ll be spending more of their newly-acquired resources on “wise” (usually morally-neutral) investments, and less on things that end up benefitting evil people, like buying illegal drugs.

My whole stance, here, is that you can take a graph of economic transactions, and color the vertices as being good or evil. Consequentialism would suggest doing whatever moves the most money (across the entire economy, as nth-degree knock-on reactions to your action) from evil actors to good actors.

One consequence of this stance: you should never (before considering those nth-degree effects) buy from a person/company you think is evil. You’re helping them liquidate their assets! Now they have more freedom to do evil with them!

(Whereas, in the opposite case, if you sell an evil person a house, now they just... have a house. It’s a mostly-illiquid asset. They can’t do much with it except live in it. If you sell evil a house—knowing they’re going to live in it, not hold it or flip it as an investment property—then you’re effectively letting evil voluntarily freeze part of its assets. Great!)

The sound bite version of all this: if $dictator wants to pay all their money to be hooked up to an eternal-bliss machine, it is your moral duty to take that money. Whether or not you think they “deserve” eternal bliss, they’re getting something that doesn’t harm anyone else; and in exchange, you’re taking all the resources they’d use to harm anyone in the future away from them. This isn’t selling out: it’s a negotiated solution that satisfies both parties’ preferences (where your morals are part of your preferences.)

I fully believe that this is how we’ll have to deal with any aliens we ever meet. They’ll want some things we think are evil. We’ll want some things they think are evil. The solution is to trade, as much as possible, in ways that satisfy the mutually-acceptable shared subset of our preferences—which comes, on both sides, at the expense of our resources to do mutually-unacceptable things. (I.e., not the GDP-improving kind of trade; the “money is disappearing from the economy” kind of trade, e.g. employing foreign experience-service providers where you get nothing fungible in return for your money.)

——

† Lottery runners—at least in the case of state-run lotteries—are actually usually pretty okay people. They’re usually the same people who run state alcohol licensing: i.e., “temperance”/“moderation” people, the kind who wanted prohibition passed back when. The newer generations of them aren’t activists, but beuraucratic pragmatists; they know they can’t just prohibit these things, so instead they try to ensure that as few people touch them as possible. Usually the same people running a state lottery are pushing for those “Game responsibly” ads, and discouraging media coverage of casinos.

But, of course, you could still do better. A lottery that donates the proceeds to charity would be an unalloyed good.

Re:WhatsApp co-founder accuses Facebook of trading privacy f... by thinkloop on Saturday March 16, 2019 @03:59AM (#19406866)
> and the WhatsApp founders have more money they can use to influence the world in good ways

Yes, let's hope they start a privacy-centric messenger to fix this mess! I kid, but money is worthless, it's the things it can get that matter - what thing could they get that would better help privacy than being in charge of the top messenger?

Re:WhatsApp co-founder accuses Facebook of trading privacy f... by eitland on Saturday March 16, 2019 @06:40AM (#19407187)
> Now Facebook have less money that they can use to influence the world in stupid/evil ways, and the WhatsApp founders have more money they can use to influence the world in good ways.

Correct.

> since Facebook now owns the service of WhatsApp, they have the adopted duty of popularizing it—a service that inherently resists the kind of centralized analytical approaches Facebook uses to make money

There's nothing inherently decentralized about WhatsApp.

> that nobody would accept if it was turned into not-that, because that’s its whole thing.

Sadly, that's what happened with WhatsApp. It was sold as a privacy-friendly alternative.

After it became part of Facebooks metadata harvesting engine it turned out the majority cared less about privacy and more about the fact that it was a really good messenger (it was/is).

Re:WhatsApp co-founder accuses Facebook of trading privacy f... by derefr on Saturday March 16, 2019 @10:40AM (#19408008)
Not inherently decentralized, no. But it’s “inherently” E2E-encrypted, in the sense that that’s why people (or, a large segment of people) use the app. If it doesn’t do that, people will stop using it.

Maybe “inherently” is the wrong word. Is “Diet Coke” inherently a diet drink? That’s the idea I’m trying to get at here: that people wouldn’t buy a “Diet Coke” that isn’t made with a sugar substitute, because then it wouldn’t be “Diet” any more, and that’s why people were drinking it in the first place.

Re:WhatsApp co-founder accuses Facebook of trading privacy f... by eitland on Sunday March 17, 2019 @03:08PM (#19415779)
> Not inherently decentralized, no. But it’s “inherently” E2E-encrypted, in the sense that that’s why people (or, a large segment of people) use the app. If it doesn’t do that, people will stop using it.

People used and loved WhatsApp long before it was e2e encrypted. I know, I was one of them.

In fact, IIRC was pretty bad before they implememted the new e2e encryption.

I used to think people chose them because they promised no ads and no tracking.

I now think most people used it because it was a user friendly messaging solution.

Re:WhatsApp co-founder accuses Facebook of trading privacy f... by scarface74 on Saturday March 16, 2019 @03:12PM (#19409572)
I see nothing hypocritical about good people taking payment from evil people. “Payment” means that the resources of the payer go down, and the resources of the payee go up. Now Facebook have less money that they can use to influence the world in stupid/evil ways, and the WhatsApp founders have more money they can use to influence the world in good ways.

So you really think that Facebook hasn’t made more than the $1 Billion dollars on Instagram thsn ot paid for it?

Re:WhatsApp co-founder accuses Facebook of trading privacy f... by taneq on Saturday March 16, 2019 @04:47AM (#19406977)
> a service that inherently resists the kind of centralized analytical approaches Facebook uses to make money

Unless they, you know... change it.

Re:WhatsApp co-founder accuses Facebook of trading privacy f... by ggm on Saturday March 16, 2019 @03:08AM (#19406730)
What they do with the money would be interesting. I suspect some of it will go back into things I value in secure crypto and interpersonal communications. Or open source. Even Andreessen did some good with his filthy lucre.
Re:WhatsApp co-founder accuses Facebook of trading privacy f... by turkeytotal on Saturday March 16, 2019 @03:21AM (#19406766)
Brian has done that with Signal Foundation:

https://signal.org/blog/signal-foundation/

Re:WhatsApp co-founder accuses Facebook of trading privacy f... by ggm on Saturday March 16, 2019 @03:26AM (#19406784)
Hooray! I use signal. So I'm benefiting.