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Re:Brexit: MPs reject Theresa May's deal by 149 votes by grey-area on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @03:58PM (#19372328)
Democracy is a process not a single vote.

People voted based on russian-funded lies funnelled through corrupt millionaires like Arron Banks, illegally funded and illegally targetting voters with murky data from the likes of cambridge analytica, using extensive and highly targetted ad campaigns on FB (still going on btw - over £500k spent this week). Among other lies politicians told them that we'd stay in the custons union and havd more money for the nhs, but mostly they played on a fear of immigrants.

Brexit won by a tiny margin on the largest constitutional change since the act of union, but somehow 'the will of the people' at that moment in time is inviolate and can never be questioned.

That's facism, not democracy.

Re:Brexit: MPs reject Theresa May's deal by 149 votes by dingaling on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @06:28PM (#19373732)
> People voted based on russian-funded lies ...

Well I voted Leave because this is likely to be the last chance for the UK to get out of ever-tighter European political integration. About which we were never consulted before engaging.

In the 1980s I backpacked around Europe and met many wonderful people. But not once did I think that "what we need is an additional layer of federal government to bind us all into one destiny". They were countries of Europe, but beyond trade every country got on with its own affairs. And things seemed to be OK.

The Common Market was a good idea, but things took a more sinister turn in 1992 with the Maastricht Treaty. Who was driving that? Not the common people of Europe as far as I could tell.

To me, Brexit was an opportunity for asking myself: why does the EU exist, why did it supercede the EEC and what is the end-goal? I didn't like any of the answers.

Re:Brexit: MPs reject Theresa May's deal by 149 votes by grey-area on Wednesday March 13, 2019 @09:07AM (#19378184)
I do think we should avoid talk of 'the common people' because it's impossible to know with any clarity what 'the people' want, and it changes over time. This is why we live in a representative democracies, not direct democracies.

Personally I think the EU is a force for good in the world. It has failings - the parliament does not yet have enough power, and the treatment of Greece was a travesty, but in spite of that it has lead Europe from war, dictatorship and acrimony to peace and prosperity. The end goal is of course a federal state and for the states within that to be subsidiary, and a large free market of work and goods within that area. Sounds good to me compared to the sclerotic British state still fondly grasping at dreams of lost Empire.

If the EU fails, the UK fails with it, regardless of whether we are in or out. If war comes to Europe we will not be able to avoid it. So the independence given by Brexit is an illusion. I find it highly unlikely that the UK will have more influence, more independence ore more power outside the EU, simply because of its size and proximity. So in my view Brexit is a false choice between a dream of independence which cannot truly exist in our global world, and the spectre of an evil federal state dictating our every move. Why not help to build the federal state we'd like to see in the world? If I had to start somewhere building a new state, I certainly wouldn't start with the current UK political system and UK state.

Re:Brexit: MPs reject Theresa May's deal by 149 votes by vixen99 on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @04:11PM (#19372468)
And if the remainers had won with a 'tiny margin' the same argument could be made. It's clear you have an agenda though you don't apply the same arguments on the other side for those whose pockets are well-lined directly by the EU. I do understand that turkeys don't vote for Christmas. As for your comparison with fascism, you need to extend your reading on the subject.
Re:Brexit: MPs reject Theresa May's deal by 149 votes by grey-area on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @04:52PM (#19372890)
My point was it is very foolish and provides no democratic mandate to vote on such vast changes with a simple majority. Whatever the outcome, it was an extremely bad idea in what is supposed to be a representative democracy. So I think you're agreeing with me there.

You think the EU funded illegal propaganda like that funded via the russian embassy? Got any proof of that? Arron banks is being investigated currently:

https://www.politico.eu/article/arron-banks-investigated-ove...

I believe rhetoric like 'the will of the people' is facist.