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Re:Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Am... by rayiner on Friday March 08, 2019 @11:42AM (#19339197)
That odd SV myopia. The trend in broadband has been more competition. Verizon competes with Comcast in almost its entire FiOS service area. These days it also competes with cellular—15% (and growing) of households have abandoned wired broadband in favor of cellular. There are four major cellular providers.

In tech, the trend has been in the other direction. If you don’t consider Sprint a viable competitor to AT&T, what does that say about Bing and the search market? If cellular isn’t competitive, what about mobile, where there is just Android and iOS?

Re:Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Am... by psadauskas on Friday March 08, 2019 @12:04PM (#19339435)
It would be odd if it were SV myopia, since I'm 1000 miles from there. In 90% of Denver Metro, your choice is Comcast or 1.5mbit CenturyLink. I just bought a house in a new neighborhood, and one of the major selling points was that both CenturyLink and Comcast offer 1gbit service. CenturyLink's service costs about 3/4 of Comcast, and Comcast's service here is already about 1/2 of what they change for gigabit in other areas that don't have competition.

Sure, Google has the search monopoly, but they don't actively squash (or try to get laws made against) any other company trying to build an alternative search engine. I use DDG for most things, but occasionally have to repeat the search on Google because its just better.

Also, my point isn't that FAANG are perfect citizens and don't need any regulation at all, its that the Telecom companies are far worse If we're gearing up enough citizenry outrage to do some monopoly busting, lets start with them instead.

Re:Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Am... by weberc2 on Friday March 08, 2019 @12:18PM (#19339584)
I've got that SV myopia here in Chicago too ;)
Re:Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Am... by tptacek on Friday March 08, 2019 @04:00PM (#19342120)
Chicago has Comcast, AT&T Fiber, Spectrum, and RCN.
Re:Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Am... by pseudalopex on Saturday March 09, 2019 @10:55PM (#19350092)
How many households can choose between all of them?
Re:Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Am... by streblo on Friday March 08, 2019 @11:51AM (#19339282)
> The trend in broadband has been more competition.

In the past decade I've lived in three different cities, and in each one Comcast was the only provider available. Do we really not think Comcast has a monopoly?

Re:Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Am... by rayiner on Friday March 08, 2019 @12:14PM (#19339542)
Google has 90% search market share--Comcast doesn't have that even in areas where it is the sole high-speed wired provider (because DSL and cellular are viable alternatives for a significant part of the population). And over large swaths of its service area it isn't the only high-speed wired option. I don't know where you're located, but I've lived in Chicago, Atlanta, DC, Baltimore, Annapolis, New York, and Philadelphia over the last decade. Each place except Baltimore has multiple providers. And Comcast competes with cellular everywhere.

If you take the view that cellular or DSL aren't legitimate competition (despite having double-digit marketshare even where Comcast has no other competition), then Bing and Yahoo! aren't competition for Google either. In which case Google has a nationwide monopoly in search.

Re:Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Am... by f-securus on Friday March 08, 2019 @12:33PM (#19339795)
It isn't about market share. It is about consumer choice. Access to google alternatives are available to everyone. Many people don't have a reasonable choice when it comes to broadband.
Re:Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Am... by rayiner on Friday March 08, 2019 @12:50PM (#19340043)
Economists traditionally analyze market concentration in terms of market share, not the mere existence of choice. I will point out that you felt the need to qualify "choice" with "reasonable"--because Comcast competes with DSL and cellular almost everywhere. But that some qualifier applies to search. Even in markets where Comcast is the only cable provider, it usually doesn't have anything close to 90% market share, because DSL and cellular are a "reasonable choice" for quite a lot of people. (About half of households don't subscribe to any streaming video service.) Thus, judging by market share, Google alternatives are apparently even less viable in the search industry than DSL and cellular are in the home broadband industry.
Re:Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Am... by gowld on Friday March 08, 2019 @04:52PM (#19342574)
Competitive markets tend toward monopolies because everyone wants the best product. Monopolies are only prevented by vendor lock in or natural barriers (like geography, which mostly does not exist on the Internet), which is why you have a few pseudo competitors in broadband and cellular.
Re:Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Am... by 0815test on Friday March 08, 2019 @12:56PM (#19340112)
> Economists traditionally analyze market concentration in terms of market share, not the mere existence of choice.

Actually, many economists - and perhaps most of them - argue that what's fundamental to monopolization concerns is the presence of undue barriers to entry that make the market non-contestable. "Market share" and "choice" are not helpful on their own, because a big market share could be entirely due to the incumbent pursuing efficiency and the consumer's best interests, so as to keep themselves ahead of any possible competitors. But this is a benign dynamic that will be quickly corrected should the incumbent fall behind, as competitors would quickly enter the market.

Re:Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Am... by JohnFen on Friday March 08, 2019 @11:57AM (#19339339)
> The trend in broadband has been more competition.

I'm not in SV, but this is 100% not true in my area. Where I live, my choice for broadband providers consists of Comcast. There is no alternative, nor is there any sign that competition is coming.

Re:Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Am... by uerobert on Friday March 08, 2019 @12:20PM (#19339611)
Why do you think that is?
Re:Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Am... by JohnFen on Friday March 08, 2019 @02:38PM (#19341399)
I don't know -- I have no data to even speculate on. But I do know that there's nothing unusual about my situation. It's common across the country.
Re:Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Am... by ABCLAW on Friday March 08, 2019 @01:31PM (#19340516)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_allocation_scheme

Only that you don't need an agreement to make it happen. Tacit understanding works just as well.

Re:Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Am... by ApolloFortyNine on Friday March 08, 2019 @11:49AM (#19339266)
You have to look at areas where Comcast is the only choice, what the prices and speeds available are there, and the prices and speeds that are suddenly available when a competitor arises.

And phone service is not a viable alternative. Even 50gb (the standard cap it seems nowadays before throttling) gets you only 10-20 hours of video at high quality.

Re:Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Am... by rayiner on Friday March 08, 2019 @12:01PM (#19339386)
Sure, in some areas the lack of ISP competition is particularly acute. But on the flip side, lack of competition in tech is a nationwide problem. I’ve got gigabit through both Verizon and Comcast at my house. It’s much easier for me to switch between the two than for me to switch off gmail (which has years of my emails), or to switch off Facebook (which all my aunts and uncles use).

As to cellular—it’s a viable alternative for lots of people. Many people don’t need more than 10-20 hours of high quality video per month. 20% of people are already smartphone-only users, and that figure is growing. At the same time, those data caps are growing. Verizon’s 5G service has no data cap. Even if there is a soft cap of a few hundred GB, that’ll be a viable wired replacement for most people.

The trend in tech, by contrast, is the opposite. We’re not on the precipice of increased competition in search or mobile OSs. Indeed, with Microsoft throwing in the towel on Windows Mobile, there is less competition in that space than ever.

Re:Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Am... by fedorareis on Friday March 08, 2019 @12:31PM (#19339769)
You are fortunate to be in one of the few areas where there is true ISP competition. For most of the country there is none. Yes, it may be hard to move off of gmail but it isn’t impossible unlike changing high speed internet providers for most of the country. You can leave Facebook and communicate in other ways. I’m sure your aunts and uncles have phones so you could text or call them.

I don’t see how splitting up Apple or Google would increase the number of mobile OSs. There have been companies in the past that have tried building a mobile OS either for a specific phone or as an open source OS and none of them have really gained traction. There have been rumors for a couple years now of some of the phone manufacturers talking about building their own OS to use in place of android, yet those still haven’t appeared. Microsoft failed at mobile because they were too late to the party, people already knew which mobile experience they preferred.

Re:Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Am... by rayiner on Friday March 08, 2019 @12:59PM (#19340147)
> You are fortunate to be in one of the few areas where there is true ISP competition. For most of the country there is none.

That's not true, and I'm not sure where people get that idea. Slightly over half the country has two or more wired choices at 25 mbps, and that's as of a few years ago.

And if you're saying that texting my aunt in Bangladesh is a viable alternative to sharing pictures of my kids on Facebook, then it makes no sense to discount satellite, DSL, and cellular as viable alternatives to Comcast. (And indeed they are for many people--just over half the households in Comcast's footprint actually subscribe to its service.)