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Re:California keeps a secret list of criminal cops, but says... by craftinator on Tuesday February 26, 2019 @05:09PM (#19258769)
This line of reasoning is insane to me. For the most part, police act as a deterrent against crime, not as an actual barrier. Police tactics are geared toward making them more of a deterrent, making their presence felt by everyone around as much as possible. So calling the police because you've just been robbed is not likely to achieve anything (I've had two cars stolen, and in both cases the police never achieved anything).

If police aren't a deterrent from car theft (as carjacking is a pretty common crime), then we are encouraging that behavior by doing nothing and calling the cops. Conversely, if the average person, during an attempted carjacking, opened fire on the attacker, it would be a major deterrent. There would be almost no repeat offenders (I have been shot at, and it is terrifying).

Re:California keeps a secret list of criminal cops, but says... by ams6110 on Tuesday February 26, 2019 @05:41PM (#19259028)
The police are almost never around to intervene in a crime in progress. They show up in the aftermath and investigate what happened, gather evidence, and eventually may refer a suspect to the prosecutor for charges.
Re:California keeps a secret list of criminal cops, but says... by craftinator on Thursday February 28, 2019 @08:09PM (#19277108)
Agreed. Their main value is as a deterrent presence, a chilling effect on criminal conduct. They do gather evidence, etc, but the vast majority of their work is driving around and being seen.
Re:California keeps a secret list of criminal cops, but says... by munk-a on Tuesday February 26, 2019 @05:53PM (#19259136)
I mean, the other line of reasoning is insane to me. If you can safely escape a situation why should you risk escalating and possibly getting shot yourself?

Report the item as stolen and move on with your life.

Re:California keeps a secret list of criminal cops, but says... by int_19h on Tuesday February 26, 2019 @07:39PM (#19259855)
Because that requires you to be able to judge whether it's safe for you to escape or not, while under significant stress, and with the consequence of making the wrong choice being your limb or life. And then a bunch of people sitting in a comfortable room will carefully go over the evidence and your statements, and decide whether you decided correctly.

And all that solely to spare the attacker the consequences of his choices. I'd rather err on the side of the victim here - they didn't choose to be in that position, they were placed in it by actions of the attacker.

Note that this all only applies when the person defending themselves is in a position where they reasonably believe that they're in danger. It's generally not legal to defend your property with lethal force in US, if you are not endangered yourself; the sole exception is Texas.

Re:California keeps a secret list of criminal cops, but says... by munk-a on Tuesday February 26, 2019 @07:51PM (#19259914)
Hrm, and yet in this discussion there are quite a few examples of people glorifying defending themselves with a weapon or lethal force. It is romanticized in the US and that's going to tip the balance on whether someone will preserve themselves or attempt to "take justice into their own hands". I think judges are in the position, and have generally proven quite able, to rule on cases where someone was legitimately uncertain if there were other options, but it's also a bit scary how glorified responding with force seems to be.
Re:California keeps a secret list of criminal cops, but says... by int_19h on Tuesday February 26, 2019 @08:08PM (#19259993)
In my country of birth, there are quite a few cases where people are convinced on "excessive force used in self-defense" even in situations where they were literally being shot at. So no, it's not at all a given. I'd rather not have that possibility.

A more important question is why. We're discussing a situation with a premise that we have already firmly established that the victim was violently attacked, or had a credible threat of the same (if we haven't, then it's not self-defense by legal definition). At that point, why would you accommodate the attacker at the expense of the victim, so long as victim remains threatened (again, if they're no longer threatened, then it's legally not self-defense)?

I often hear truisms such as "every life is valuable", but that goes both ways, and there's no way to avoid judging the relative value of victim's life versus the attacker's in this situation. Since it was attacker's choices that create this contradiction in the first place, I believe that they're fully responsible for it - i.e. the victim has no obligations whatsoever to think about the attacker's safety, only about their own and that of bystanders. Which means removing the threat by the most efficient way possible, rather than the most humane towards the attacker. Once attacker is no longer a threat, then considerations of the value of their life etc are back in force, because it's no longer at the expense of danger to someone else.

Re:California keeps a secret list of criminal cops, but says... by fwip on Tuesday February 26, 2019 @10:22PM (#19260581)
If somebody tells you "your money or your life," it's pretty obvious that the safer option is to give them the money.
Re:California keeps a secret list of criminal cops, but says... by craftinator on Thursday February 28, 2019 @03:50PM (#19275054)
> If somebody tells you "your money or your life," it's pretty obvious that the safer option is to give them the money.

Safer for you, right then (unless you, you know, actually need that money, for food). Unsafe for all of their future victims, whom you have just chosen not to help. This is true for the same reason that evolution and game-ification works... Applying positive feedback to an action increases the likelihood of that action being performed again. By giving in, you choose not to stop them, and communicate to them that what they are doing is okay.

Re:California keeps a secret list of criminal cops, but says... by throwaway8879 on Tuesday February 26, 2019 @08:01PM (#19259971)
How about not trying to steal my things? I'm glad to live somewhere where I can react with over-the-top force to defend my possessions.
Re:California keeps a secret list of criminal cops, but says... by craftinator on Thursday February 28, 2019 @03:43PM (#19274990)
Because if you don't do anything, the thief will have their actions validated. That theft will no longer be an isolated, one time occurrence... It will be their new full time job. That means that they are much more likely to end up robbing someone again, be it you, a close relative, a loved one, a person who can't afford to "move on with their life", as you said. I'm trying very hard not to use the word "sheeple" here, but you haven't left me many options. If the average person protects themselves, then the group or community, on average, will be protected.
Re:California keeps a secret list of criminal cops, but says... by wu-ikkyu on Tuesday February 26, 2019 @09:15PM (#19260304)
Because sometimes you only have seconds or milliseconds to decide how best to potentially save your own life and/or the lives of your family.

Sometimes "safely escaping" is not something you have the time or option to even consider.

It's simply about the human right to defend one's own life.

Re:California keeps a secret list of criminal cops, but says... by craftinator on Thursday February 28, 2019 @08:12PM (#19277122)
You mean, "If you think you can safely escape".
Re:California keeps a secret list of criminal cops, but says... by patmcc on Tuesday February 26, 2019 @06:36PM (#19259468)
>>Conversely, if the average person, during an attempted carjacking, opened fire on the attacker, it would be a major deterrent.

It would also be a major incentive for the carjacker to carry a gun and possibly use it.

Re:California keeps a secret list of criminal cops, but says... by cgag on Tuesday February 26, 2019 @07:34PM (#19259828)
Well, bring it on I guess. I can't imagine wanting to live in a world where it's illegal to defend yourself from thieves.

I would think the incentive is that they don't want to die for a car or they don't want to commit a crime someone will actually investigate (a murder).

Re:California keeps a secret list of criminal cops, but says... by patmcc on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @02:29PM (#19266178)
>>I can't imagine wanting to live in a world where it's illegal to defend yourself from thieves.

It's not illegal to defend yourself, but it might be illegal to defend your property, yes. I think it's an complicated moral question whether or not it's fine to shoot someone stealing your TV, but there are lots of practical reasons I think it's probably best to have it generally not be legal.

Re:California keeps a secret list of criminal cops, but says... by wahern on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @12:12AM (#19261042)
Technically you already do. Most jurisdictions around the world impose a duty to retreat, often quite strictly. The United States is an exception, largely an artifact of our frontier history and Wild West lore.

There's a reason why the United States is such a violent country, and one of the most violent where law & order haven't broken down. I'm not saying I disagree with your sentiment that one should be given some liberties in meeting aggression with aggression. It's how I feel, too. (And I'm not shy around guns, FWIW.) But that feeling was nurtured by our violent culture. In most other countries people don't feel a compunction to buy a gun or otherwise arm themselves after being burglarized or carjacked. A predisposition to resort to violence isn't universal, not among developed nations, not even for defense. That took me awhile to wrap my head around, but IME (Ecuador, Mexico, Malaysia) it's true, even in countries with significantly more violent crime than we have.

Re:California keeps a secret list of criminal cops, but says... by magduf on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @10:35AM (#19263840)
>There's a reason why the United States is such a violent country, and one of the most violent where law & order haven't broken down.

The big problem I see is the easy availability of guns, which has turned into an arms race of sorts. So victims (such as for carjacking, the subject here) have very good reason to fear that attackers are armed with deadly weapons, and so many people want to carry guns themselves to defend against this, and so the criminals carry guns too.

In other developed nations, there's generally no easy access to guns, so a victim doesn't have such a large reason to fear for their life. The worst thing they have to worry about is usually being stabbed with a knife, which is generally much more survivable. So these countries generally have much less deadly crime, though they have more petty street crime (pickpocketing or purse-grabbing for instance).

Countries where they have more violent crime like Mexico, El Salvador, etc. are ones where law and order really have broken down, and these aren't "developed nations" either; poverty and crime are both rampant there.

Re:California keeps a secret list of criminal cops, but says... by craftinator on Friday March 01, 2019 @01:46AM (#19278468)
The problem with gun control in a country that already has a high number of weapons per capita, as well as a constitutional right to carry them, is that people will refuse. No one likes to be helpless, and the manufacturing technology is pervasive. But what if we made all guns illegal, and the US citizens actually complied? End result: only criminals will have guns. That is a problem the police cannot possibly cope with. As a carjacker, I would feel way more comfortable in this situation.
Re:California keeps a secret list of criminal cops, but says... by wahern on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @02:38PM (#19266255)
With regards to guns, I agree. We're a violent society that suffers violent crime and a violent response to crime. And I don't know how to untangle things other than to first appreciate the complexity of the situation.

I just think it's important to understand that ours is a rather unique culture. Arming oneself is a reasonable response given our cultural values, and I support Americans' right to own firearms for self-dense (albeit with more regulation than commonly required). I hesitate to say it's reasonable in light of our violent crime. Middle-class Americans suffer very little violent crime. The ones who suffer the most, such as in inner-city ghettos, are communities that most vociferously support gun control and the most skeptical of self-defense arguments. But in any event most other cultures take a polar opposite view--that even aggression in self-defense is to be disincentivized--and I appreciate that it's also reasonable.

Re:California keeps a secret list of criminal cops, but says... by int_19h on Tuesday February 26, 2019 @07:41PM (#19259864)
The major disincentive to this is that if they do and get caught, the penalties are far more significant. In fact, many laws specifically demand harsh penalties for merely carrying a gun while committing a crime, not even for using it.
Re:California keeps a secret list of criminal cops, but says... by craftinator on Friday March 01, 2019 @01:43AM (#19278453)
They already carry guns, or at least some form of weapon. No one mugs someone without knowing they have overwhelming force. Knowing that the person you're about to rob is likely to have a gun, and is likely to use it against you, makes you consider safer forms of employment. It's not like they only have to steal one car... It has to be regular or it's unsustainable, and if you are regularly getting shot at while trying to carjack... You won't be carjacking for long!
Re:California keeps a secret list of criminal cops, but says... by craftinator on Thursday February 28, 2019 @03:57PM (#19275104)
In all likelihood, the carjacker is already armed. No one tries to mug someone without an advantage. But assuming they are not, it forces the carjacker, who is a human being, to wonder if his/her line of work is worth having some crazy asshole open fire over some stupid car. Most people would say no, and the ones who decide it is worth it, they won't last long if half of the jobs they pull end up with bullets coming their way.
Re:California keeps a secret list of criminal cops, but says... by garmaine on Tuesday February 26, 2019 @06:54PM (#19259592)
Not possibly use it, assuredly use it. They wouldn't hesitate. Why risk themselves by giving the victim a chance to respond, if they're prepared to use deadly force in the first place?